Transformation obeying layer blending?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
11 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Transformation obeying layer blending?

Tobiasz Karoń
Hi!

When doing transformations (scale, rotation, perspective transform) the
transformed layer "pops out" and transformed part of the image is fully
opaque and drawn on top of everything else together with the transfomation
gizmo/controls/grid.

Sometimes I'd like to be able to make this semi-transparent to be able to
align one layer to another, laying underneath it.

Sometimes I use the "Difference" blending type to compare two layers and
align stuff precisely. For translation I can use the arrow keys and the
blending works, but for perspective transform, scaling or rotation - I
can't use my layer's blending while manipulating the transfomation, and
that'd be super useful at times.

What do you think?

--
- Tobiasz 'unfa' Karoń

http://soundcloud.com/unfa
_______________________________________________
gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Transformation obeying layer blending?

Peter O'Regan
I see what you describe in 2.8 and I agree it would be useful. And
fortunately, the development 2.9 build contains an opacity control in the
transformation tools to do just that! =)

Peter

On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 6:06 AM, Tobiasz Karoń <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi!
>
> When doing transformations (scale, rotation, perspective transform) the
> transformed layer "pops out" and transformed part of the image is fully
> opaque and drawn on top of everything else together with the transfomation
> gizmo/controls/grid.
>
> Sometimes I'd like to be able to make this semi-transparent to be able to
> align one layer to another, laying underneath it.
>
> Sometimes I use the "Difference" blending type to compare two layers and
> align stuff precisely. For translation I can use the arrow keys and the
> blending works, but for perspective transform, scaling or rotation - I
> can't use my layer's blending while manipulating the transfomation, and
> that'd be super useful at times.
>
> What do you think?
>
> --
> - Tobiasz 'unfa' Karoń
>
> http://soundcloud.com/unfa
> _______________________________________________
> gimp-developer-list mailing list
> List address:    [hidden email]
> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-
> developer-list
> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>
_______________________________________________
gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
C R
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Transformation obeying layer blending?

C R
The bad news is that opaque is still the default, so you have to take
time to adjust the opacity mode each and every time you restart GIMP.

Thus, if you want to transform the layer in relation to what's under
it, you have to follow these steps:

1.Start the transform (scale, rotate, unified transform, etc.)
2.Hide the current layer.
3.Adjust the opacity of the transformation preview in the transform
tool options.
4.Set grid to zero lines
5.complete transformation
6.Un-hide layer to see the results.

Additionally, you have to do this for each tool you want to use for
transforming at least once per gimp session.

This is a lot of work, when all you want to do is see what's under
your transformation while transforming.

The steps could be reduced dramatically by changing some of gimps defaults:

1.Start the transformation (GIMP automatically sets transforming layer
display to hidden. This is necessary to see the result of your
transformation in can see relation to what's below it. GIMP could also
set the transform visibility to 75% opacity by default, giving an even
better view of what the transformation is covering up. GIMP should
hide grid lines by default during transformation unless the user asks
for them. They have only ever really gotten in the way, and I have yet
to find any good use for them.)
2.Complete the transformation (GIMP unhides the layer, thus showing
the transformation in its complete state at full opacity)

So as you can see, this would cut down the work the user has to do a
lot when transforming. It would also bring GIMP's transforming into
the same ease of use as every other graphics program I've ever used
professionally. :) After having lived with it like this every working
day for the last 6 years, I have to say, it's still one of my biggest
gripes about GIMP's GUI. Can we fix it? Please? Pretty pretty please?
:)

-C



On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Peter O'Regan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I see what you describe in 2.8 and I agree it would be useful. And
> fortunately, the development 2.9 build contains an opacity control in the
> transformation tools to do just that! =)
>
> Peter
>
> On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 6:06 AM, Tobiasz Karoń <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>>
>> When doing transformations (scale, rotation, perspective transform) the
>> transformed layer "pops out" and transformed part of the image is fully
>> opaque and drawn on top of everything else together with the transfomation
>> gizmo/controls/grid.
>>
>> Sometimes I'd like to be able to make this semi-transparent to be able to
>> align one layer to another, laying underneath it.
>>
>> Sometimes I use the "Difference" blending type to compare two layers and
>> align stuff precisely. For translation I can use the arrow keys and the
>> blending works, but for perspective transform, scaling or rotation - I
>> can't use my layer's blending while manipulating the transfomation, and
>> that'd be super useful at times.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> --
>> - Tobiasz 'unfa' Karoń
>>
>> http://soundcloud.com/unfa
>> _______________________________________________
>> gimp-developer-list mailing list
>> List address:    [hidden email]
>> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-
>> developer-list
>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> gimp-developer-list mailing list
> List address:    [hidden email]
> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
_______________________________________________
gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Transformation obeying layer blending?

Tobiasz Karoń
What you proposed sounds very sensible to me. It would help a lot of
situations, and I don't see any which it would harm.

4 mar 2017 6:51 PM "C R" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):

> The bad news is that opaque is still the default, so you have to take
> time to adjust the opacity mode each and every time you restart GIMP.
>
> Thus, if you want to transform the layer in relation to what's under
> it, you have to follow these steps:
>
> 1.Start the transform (scale, rotate, unified transform, etc.)
> 2.Hide the current layer.
> 3.Adjust the opacity of the transformation preview in the transform
> tool options.
> 4.Set grid to zero lines
> 5.complete transformation
> 6.Un-hide layer to see the results.
>
> Additionally, you have to do this for each tool you want to use for
> transforming at least once per gimp session.
>
> This is a lot of work, when all you want to do is see what's under
> your transformation while transforming.
>
> The steps could be reduced dramatically by changing some of gimps defaults:
>
> 1.Start the transformation (GIMP automatically sets transforming layer
> display to hidden. This is necessary to see the result of your
> transformation in can see relation to what's below it. GIMP could also
> set the transform visibility to 75% opacity by default, giving an even
> better view of what the transformation is covering up. GIMP should
> hide grid lines by default during transformation unless the user asks
> for them. They have only ever really gotten in the way, and I have yet
> to find any good use for them.)
> 2.Complete the transformation (GIMP unhides the layer, thus showing
> the transformation in its complete state at full opacity)
>
> So as you can see, this would cut down the work the user has to do a
> lot when transforming. It would also bring GIMP's transforming into
> the same ease of use as every other graphics program I've ever used
> professionally. :) After having lived with it like this every working
> day for the last 6 years, I have to say, it's still one of my biggest
> gripes about GIMP's GUI. Can we fix it? Please? Pretty pretty please?
> :)
>
> -C
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Peter O'Regan <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > I see what you describe in 2.8 and I agree it would be useful. And
> > fortunately, the development 2.9 build contains an opacity control in the
> > transformation tools to do just that! =)
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 6:06 AM, Tobiasz Karoń <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi!
> >>
> >> When doing transformations (scale, rotation, perspective transform) the
> >> transformed layer "pops out" and transformed part of the image is fully
> >> opaque and drawn on top of everything else together with the
> transfomation
> >> gizmo/controls/grid.
> >>
> >> Sometimes I'd like to be able to make this semi-transparent to be able
> to
> >> align one layer to another, laying underneath it.
> >>
> >> Sometimes I use the "Difference" blending type to compare two layers and
> >> align stuff precisely. For translation I can use the arrow keys and the
> >> blending works, but for perspective transform, scaling or rotation - I
> >> can't use my layer's blending while manipulating the transfomation, and
> >> that'd be super useful at times.
> >>
> >> What do you think?
> >>
> >> --
> >> - Tobiasz 'unfa' Karoń
> >>
> >> http://soundcloud.com/unfa
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> gimp-developer-list mailing list
> >> List address:    [hidden email]
> >> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-
> >> developer-list
> >> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > gimp-developer-list mailing list
> > List address:    [hidden email]
> > List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-
> developer-list
> > List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>
_______________________________________________
gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
C R
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Transformation obeying layer blending?

C R
Thanks Tobiasz, :) it's just my own experience as a long time Gimp user. If
anyone would like a proper use case write up on it, I can provide that as
well if it helps.

Thanks to everyone for all the work and help!
-C

On 5 Mar 2017 11:17 a.m., "Tobiasz Karoń" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What you proposed sounds very sensible to me. It would help a lot of
> situations, and I don't see any which it would harm.
>
> 4 mar 2017 6:51 PM "C R" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
>
>> The bad news is that opaque is still the default, so you have to take
>> time to adjust the opacity mode each and every time you restart GIMP.
>>
>> Thus, if you want to transform the layer in relation to what's under
>> it, you have to follow these steps:
>>
>> 1.Start the transform (scale, rotate, unified transform, etc.)
>> 2.Hide the current layer.
>> 3.Adjust the opacity of the transformation preview in the transform
>> tool options.
>> 4.Set grid to zero lines
>> 5.complete transformation
>> 6.Un-hide layer to see the results.
>>
>> Additionally, you have to do this for each tool you want to use for
>> transforming at least once per gimp session.
>>
>> This is a lot of work, when all you want to do is see what's under
>> your transformation while transforming.
>>
>> The steps could be reduced dramatically by changing some of gimps
>> defaults:
>>
>> 1.Start the transformation (GIMP automatically sets transforming layer
>> display to hidden. This is necessary to see the result of your
>> transformation in can see relation to what's below it. GIMP could also
>> set the transform visibility to 75% opacity by default, giving an even
>> better view of what the transformation is covering up. GIMP should
>> hide grid lines by default during transformation unless the user asks
>> for them. They have only ever really gotten in the way, and I have yet
>> to find any good use for them.)
>> 2.Complete the transformation (GIMP unhides the layer, thus showing
>> the transformation in its complete state at full opacity)
>>
>> So as you can see, this would cut down the work the user has to do a
>> lot when transforming. It would also bring GIMP's transforming into
>> the same ease of use as every other graphics program I've ever used
>> professionally. :) After having lived with it like this every working
>> day for the last 6 years, I have to say, it's still one of my biggest
>> gripes about GIMP's GUI. Can we fix it? Please? Pretty pretty please?
>> :)
>>
>> -C
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Peter O'Regan <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> > I see what you describe in 2.8 and I agree it would be useful. And
>> > fortunately, the development 2.9 build contains an opacity control in
>> the
>> > transformation tools to do just that! =)
>> >
>> > Peter
>> >
>> > On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 6:06 AM, Tobiasz Karoń <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi!
>> >>
>> >> When doing transformations (scale, rotation, perspective transform) the
>> >> transformed layer "pops out" and transformed part of the image is fully
>> >> opaque and drawn on top of everything else together with the
>> transfomation
>> >> gizmo/controls/grid.
>> >>
>> >> Sometimes I'd like to be able to make this semi-transparent to be able
>> to
>> >> align one layer to another, laying underneath it.
>> >>
>> >> Sometimes I use the "Difference" blending type to compare two layers
>> and
>> >> align stuff precisely. For translation I can use the arrow keys and the
>> >> blending works, but for perspective transform, scaling or rotation - I
>> >> can't use my layer's blending while manipulating the transfomation, and
>> >> that'd be super useful at times.
>> >>
>> >> What do you think?
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> - Tobiasz 'unfa' Karoń
>> >>
>> >> http://soundcloud.com/unfa
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> gimp-developer-list mailing list
>> >> List address:    [hidden email]
>> >> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-
>> >> developer-list
>> >> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>> >>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > gimp-developer-list mailing list
>> > List address:    [hidden email]
>> > List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman
>> /listinfo/gimp-developer-list
>> > List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>>
>
_______________________________________________
gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Transformation obeying layer blending?

Øyvind Kolås-2
In reply to this post by Tobiasz Karoń
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 12:06 PM, Tobiasz Karoń <[hidden email]> wrote:
> When doing transformations (scale, rotation, perspective transform) the
> transformed layer "pops out" and transformed part of the image is fully
> opaque and drawn on top of everything else together with the transfomation
> gizmo/controls/grid.
>
> Sometimes I'd like to be able to make this semi-transparent to be able to
> align one layer to another, laying underneath it.

The current live preview uses cairo to render the transformed layer on
top of the UI, as mentioned - in 2.9 / 2.10 with the ability to
control the opacity of the previewed transformed layer. This is
awkward, but at last in many cases is a better realtime indication for
adjustment than only having a grid, which is all GIMP had bedfore this
proxy preview was added.

Work recently/currently being done in GEGL enavling mipmap preview
rendering, permits future versions of GIMP to do interactive preview
in its correct position in the layer stack and at configured opacity
and blending mode. This is not a blocker for 2.10 though - it is an
improvement that likely will get attention in the 3.x cycle, possibly
while also gaining the ability to do non-destructive transforms as
filters attached to invididual layers/groups.

/pippin - GEGL maintainer - http://patreon.com/pippin
_______________________________________________
gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
C R
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Transformation obeying layer blending?

C R
Thanks for the update. Is it possible it implement my temporary fix in
the meanwhile?
Not saying it should be a blocker, but it would help tremendously in
the interim.

Thanks for all your work!
-C

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 8:36 AM, Øyvind Kolås <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 12:06 PM, Tobiasz Karoń <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> When doing transformations (scale, rotation, perspective transform) the
>> transformed layer "pops out" and transformed part of the image is fully
>> opaque and drawn on top of everything else together with the transfomation
>> gizmo/controls/grid.
>>
>> Sometimes I'd like to be able to make this semi-transparent to be able to
>> align one layer to another, laying underneath it.
>
> The current live preview uses cairo to render the transformed layer on
> top of the UI, as mentioned - in 2.9 / 2.10 with the ability to
> control the opacity of the previewed transformed layer. This is
> awkward, but at last in many cases is a better realtime indication for
> adjustment than only having a grid, which is all GIMP had bedfore this
> proxy preview was added.
>
> Work recently/currently being done in GEGL enavling mipmap preview
> rendering, permits future versions of GIMP to do interactive preview
> in its correct position in the layer stack and at configured opacity
> and blending mode. This is not a blocker for 2.10 though - it is an
> improvement that likely will get attention in the 3.x cycle, possibly
> while also gaining the ability to do non-destructive transforms as
> filters attached to invididual layers/groups.
>
> /pippin - GEGL maintainer - http://patreon.com/pippin
> _______________________________________________
> gimp-developer-list mailing list
> List address:    [hidden email]
> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
_______________________________________________
gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Transformation obeying layer blending?

Øyvind Kolås-2
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:14 AM, C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Thanks for the update. Is it possible it implement my temporary fix in
> the meanwhile?
> Not saying it should be a blocker, but it would help tremendously in
> the interim.

Integrating your comments/suggestions with bug #315051 would help
track also your thinking on a possible interim solution - thus
increasing the chance of it being fixed by GIMP UI contributors
looking for unresolved issues.

/pippin - GEGL maintainer - https://patreon.com/pippin
_______________________________________________
gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
C R
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Transformation obeying layer blending?

C R
I will do a complete write up and video with my suggestions.
Thanks for your help, pippin! :)

PS - I joined your Patreon last month. Are you getting the funds okay?
I've never signed up to one of these, so I wanted to make sure it's
working correctly.

-C

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 9:48 AM, Øyvind Kolås <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:14 AM, C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Thanks for the update. Is it possible it implement my temporary fix in
>> the meanwhile?
>> Not saying it should be a blocker, but it would help tremendously in
>> the interim.
>
> Integrating your comments/suggestions with bug #315051 would help
> track also your thinking on a possible interim solution - thus
> increasing the chance of it being fixed by GIMP UI contributors
> looking for unresolved issues.
>
> /pippin - GEGL maintainer - https://patreon.com/pippin
_______________________________________________
gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Transformation obeying layer blending?

Øyvind Kolås-2
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:53 AM, C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I will do a complete write up and video with my suggestions.
> Thanks for your help, pippin! :)
>
> PS - I joined your Patreon last month. Are you getting the funds okay?
> I've never signed up to one of these, so I wanted to make sure it's
> working correctly.

Thanks a lot for your support on Patreon - the funds accumulate
correctly. It has motivated me to (over)spend time and energy on
babl/GEGL/GIMP in the last couple of months; surviving financially
works nicely as a carrot on top of the stubbornness that has fueled my
past contributions. For LGM I plan to have a video/some motion
graphics listing appreciation for donors, as well as a release of
tidied up sources for the GEGL based tool used for last years lgm goat
video, do you have a preferred rendition of your name for that
purpose?

/pippin - babl/GEGL lead develoer and maintainer - https://patreon.com/pippin
_______________________________________________
gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
C R
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Transformation obeying layer blending?

C R
Hi. :) I do not require credit for the donation, but if you want to
include it, you can just add CRogers, which is my /nick on nickserv.
Thanks for your help, and if you want any help with your animation or
presentation for LGM, let me know.
I did the one for Inkscape at last year's LGM, at the hackfest prior
to the event, and folks seemed to like it. :)
It was really last-minute though, so obviously the more lead time we
have, the better if can be.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/67wva0mryutll7d/inkscape_lgm_video_2016_finished.ogv?dl=0

You can email me directly if you would like to discuss the
animations/presentations, or I can meet you on #gimp and we can chat
there at your preference.
Really appreciate all the work you're doing on GIMP! It's well worth the funds.

At your service,
-C



On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:52 AM, Øyvind Kolås <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:53 AM, C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I will do a complete write up and video with my suggestions.
>> Thanks for your help, pippin! :)
>>
>> PS - I joined your Patreon last month. Are you getting the funds okay?
>> I've never signed up to one of these, so I wanted to make sure it's
>> working correctly.
>
> Thanks a lot for your support on Patreon - the funds accumulate
> correctly. It has motivated me to (over)spend time and energy on
> babl/GEGL/GIMP in the last couple of months; surviving financially
> works nicely as a carrot on top of the stubbornness that has fueled my
> past contributions. For LGM I plan to have a video/some motion
> graphics listing appreciation for donors, as well as a release of
> tidied up sources for the GEGL based tool used for last years lgm goat
> video, do you have a preferred rendition of your name for that
> purpose?
>
> /pippin - babl/GEGL lead develoer and maintainer - https://patreon.com/pippin
_______________________________________________
gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Loading...