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Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

Ivano Arrighetta-2
Hello there.
My name is Ivano Arrighetta and I'm Italian.
I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control, and to
use CMake for creating build projects for Windows and Mac OS, other than
Makefiles for *nix.
GitHub also offers a WebSite builder and a Wiki for each repository,
other than an issue tracker.

I'm pretty sure everyone would benefit from this.

Bye, Ivano.

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Re: Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

Alexandre Prokoudine
On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Ivano Arrighetta wrote:
> Hello there.
> My name is Ivano Arrighetta and I'm Italian.
> I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control

No.

> and to use
> CMake for creating build projects for Windows and Mac OS, other than
> Makefiles for *nix.

CMake is just as painful as autohell.

> I'm pretty sure everyone would benefit from this.

Good. But we aren't.

Alex
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Re: Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

Developers mailing list
On Sun, May 07, 2017 at 01:42:57PM +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

> On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Ivano Arrighetta wrote:
> > Hello there.
> > My name is Ivano Arrighetta and I'm Italian.
> > I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control
>
> No.
>
> > and to use
> > CMake for creating build projects for Windows and Mac OS, other than
> > Makefiles for *nix.
>
> CMake is just as painful as autohell.

I confirm what Alexandre is saying, and I'm from Italy too... ;-)


--


Marco Ciampa

I know a joke about UDP, but you might not get it.

------------------------

 GNU/Linux User #78271
 FSFE fellow #364

------------------------

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Re: Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

gregory grey
Guys, I respect your work and I like Gimp a lot but this

> > I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control
>
> No.

is how you end up being a dead project.



2017-05-07 13:14 GMT+02:00 Marco Ciampa via gimp-developer-list
<[hidden email]>:

> On Sun, May 07, 2017 at 01:42:57PM +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
>> On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Ivano Arrighetta wrote:
>> > Hello there.
>> > My name is Ivano Arrighetta and I'm Italian.
>> > I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control
>>
>> No.
>>
>> > and to use
>> > CMake for creating build projects for Windows and Mac OS, other than
>> > Makefiles for *nix.
>>
>> CMake is just as painful as autohell.
>
> I confirm what Alexandre is saying, and I'm from Italy too... ;-)
>
>
> --
>
>
> Marco Ciampa
>
> I know a joke about UDP, but you might not get it.
>
> ------------------------
>
>  GNU/Linux User #78271
>  FSFE fellow #364
>
> ------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
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Re: Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

Alexandre Prokoudine
On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 2:31 PM, gregory grey wrote:
> Guys, I respect your work and I like Gimp a lot but this
>
>> > I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control
>>
>> No.
>
> is how you end up being a dead project.

GIMP has a copy of its Git repo on GitHub, made by GNOME folks.

https://github.com/GNOME/gimp

There are currently 216 forks of it. Have you _personally_ studied
them at any length? Well, _I_ have. Last November or so I actually sat
down and went through all the forks with actual changes created in the
past 2-3 years. Out of those ca. 200 forks only a handful had actual
changes to look at. And there was pretty much nothing to gain from
those few.

In my experience (that is, closely following GIMP development for the
past 12+ years), people who are motivated to make a positive change
have no problem cloning from git.gnome.org and sending patches. Of
course, that's just _my_ experience. _You_ can run your own study and
come up with different results. I dare you to do so :)

Alex
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Re: Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

Alexandre Prokoudine
> There are currently 216 forks of it. Have you _personally_ studied
> them at any length? Well, _I_ have. Last November or so I actually sat
> down and went through all the forks with actual changes created in the
> past 2-3 years. Out of those ca. 200 forks only a handful had actual
> changes to look at. And there was pretty much nothing to gain from
> those few.

Oh, and for the record, in 2 or 3 cases when changes looked vaguely
interesting, I actually tried contacting those developers. Noone ever
got back to me.

Can you see non-responsive people being a vital part of a successful
community? Because I can't.

Alex
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Re: Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

gregory grey
It's not about Github necessarily, it's about the response tone etc.
You made a blog post, saying how small is the team and how much work you all do.
Now, a person says "I'd like to suggest" and your reply is basically
"f*** off". I wrote 2 emails saying I can help with build infra, which
is listed as a need in YOUR blog post. I got no reply.
Apparently, I have to bring sacrifices and wait until the moon is in
right shape. You are forgetting that there are loads of teams out
there doing open source development.
About your 3 cases of not responding - it's not my problem. It's your
problem, as a maintainer of OSS.

If you seriously imply that Github is not more useful as a service
than git.gnome.org, than I'm safe in betting you are writing code in
vi or something.

Every time something like this comes up there is always tha same
mantra about GIMP being so unique and unimaginably cool piece of
software that it grants you the right to do whatever you want. You
know, emulating Linus only works if you wrote Linux. There is plethora
of other image editors, I can't see why I should not help someone else
who knows better than behaving like a jerk.

2017-05-07 13:53 GMT+02:00 Alexandre Prokoudine
<[hidden email]>:

>> There are currently 216 forks of it. Have you _personally_ studied
>> them at any length? Well, _I_ have. Last November or so I actually sat
>> down and went through all the forks with actual changes created in the
>> past 2-3 years. Out of those ca. 200 forks only a handful had actual
>> changes to look at. And there was pretty much nothing to gain from
>> those few.
>
> Oh, and for the record, in 2 or 3 cases when changes looked vaguely
> interesting, I actually tried contacting those developers. Noone ever
> got back to me.
>
> Can you see non-responsive people being a vital part of a successful
> community? Because I can't.
>
> Alex
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Re: Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

Carol Spears-2
On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 8:04 AM, gregory grey <[hidden email]> wrote:

> . There is plethora
> of other image editors, I can't see why I should not help someone else
> who knows better than behaving like a jerk.
>
Oh gosh, and they are so much worse in real life!!

carol
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Re: Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

Alexandre Prokoudine
In reply to this post by gregory grey
On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 3:04 PM, gregory grey wrote:
> It's not about Github necessarily, it's about the response tone etc.
> You made a blog post, saying how small is the team and how much work you all do.
> Now, a person says "I'd like to suggest" and your reply is basically
> "f*** off".

It's an interesting way to interpret a simple 'no'.

> I wrote 2 emails saying I can help with build infra, which
> is listed as a need in YOUR blog post. I got no reply.

Yes, our email communication needs to improve. However, do I really
need to bring up our private email exchange where I explained to you
that most dev conversations take place on IRC and that the difficult
topics on the list barely ever take off?

> About your 3 cases of not responding - it's not my problem. It's your
> problem, as a maintainer of OSS.

Blaming is _exactly_ what was sorely missing on the list. Thank you.

> If you seriously imply that Github is not more useful as a service
> than git.gnome.org, than I'm safe in betting you are writing code in
> vi or something.

GitHub is full of developers who use Vi. Stuff like node-x11 is
actually written by dedicated Vi users, and I can think of a very few
things that are more hip than node.js.

Personally, whenever I actually open a source code file (which is
maybe once or twice a year), I do it in Sublime Text.

What's your _actual_ point? Do you have one?

> Every time something like this comes up there is always tha same
> mantra about GIMP being so unique and unimaginably cool piece of
> software that it grants you the right to do whatever you want. You
> know, emulating Linus only works if you wrote Linux. There is plethora
> of other image editors, I can't see why I should not help someone else

Nor can I.

> who knows better than behaving like a jerk.

Name-calling was sorely missing on this list too. Again, thank you.

If you are done with that, what are, in your opinion, the actual
advantages of relying on GitHub other than it's full of hip people who
despise Vi?

Alex
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Re: Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

Alexandre Prokoudine
In reply to this post by Carol Spears-2
On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 3:10 PM, Carol Spears wrote:

>> . There is plethora
>> of other image editors, I can't see why I should not help someone else
>> who knows better than behaving like a jerk.
>>
> Oh gosh, and they are so much worse in real life!!

Carol,

You were banned from the list (and the project) after assaulting a
user on the bugtracker while being a team member.

If you think now is a great time to have a reminiscence of good ol'
times, I kindly suggest you reconsider.

Alex
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Re: Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

gregory grey
In reply to this post by Alexandre Prokoudine
> On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 3:04 PM, gregory grey wrote:
>> It's not about Github necessarily, it's about the response tone etc.
>> You made a blog post, saying how small is the team and how much work you all do.
>> Now, a person says "I'd like to suggest" and your reply is basically
>> "f*** off".
>
> It's an interesting way to interpret a simple 'no'.
>

Turning tables much? You should interpret the number of developers on
the projects into reasons of it being so.

>> I wrote 2 emails saying I can help with build infra, which
>> is listed as a need in YOUR blog post. I got no reply.
>
> Yes, our email communication needs to improve. However, do I really
> need to bring up our private email exchange where I explained to you
> that most dev conversations take place on IRC and that the difficult
> topics on the list barely ever take off?
>

Apparently you are not too busy to participate in flame, but too busy
to see an email from potential contributor.

Last time I've used IRC was like 10 years ago. Another archaic tech
I(anyone else willing to participate) have to use because why exactly?

Emails are at least searchable.

I'm not planning to work on GIMP any more, thank you very much.

>> About your 3 cases of not responding - it's not my problem. It's your
>> problem, as a maintainer of OSS.
>
> Blaming is _exactly_ what was sorely missing on the list. Thank you.
>

Turning tables #2. You pointed to 3 times you did not get the answer
as a reason to dump Github idea. You are blaming.
I'm underlining your position, along with it's consequences, that's all.


>> If you seriously imply that Github is not more useful as a service
>> than git.gnome.org, than I'm safe in betting you are writing code in
>> vi or something.
>
> GitHub is full of developers who use Vi. Stuff like node-x11 is
> actually written by dedicated Vi users, and I can think of a very few
> things that are more hip than node.js.
>

https://media0.giphy.com/media/3h5pe45FM9qUM/giphy.gif

> Personally, whenever I actually open a source code file (which is
> maybe once or twice a year), I do it in Sublime Text.
>
> What's your _actual_ point? Do you have one?
>

That Gimp project is unfriendly, here I spelled it for you.

>> Every time something like this comes up there is always tha same
>> mantra about GIMP being so unique and unimaginably cool piece of
>> software that it grants you the right to do whatever you want. You
>> know, emulating Linus only works if you wrote Linux. There is plethora
>> of other image editors, I can't see why I should not help someone else
>
> Nor can I.
>
>> who knows better than behaving like a jerk.
>
> Name-calling was sorely missing on this list too. Again, thank you.
>
> If you are done with that, what are, in your opinion, the actual
> advantages of relying on GitHub other than it's full of hip people who
> despise Vi?
>

Turning tables #3.

You know, issues, project boards, UI what does not require reloading a
page to see the update, etc,etc.

But that is for hipsters, of course. Nothing to do with giving people
idea what how than can contribute.


> Alex
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Re: Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

Alexandre Prokoudine
On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 3:54 PM, gregory grey wrote:

>>> Now, a person says "I'd like to suggest" and your reply is basically
>>> "f*** off".
>>
>> It's an interesting way to interpret a simple 'no'.
>>
>
> Turning tables much? You should interpret the number of developers on
> the projects into reasons of it being so.

Irrelevant.

>> Yes, our email communication needs to improve. However, do I really
>> need to bring up our private email exchange where I explained to you
>> that most dev conversations take place on IRC and that the difficult
>> topics on the list barely ever take off?
>>
>
> Apparently you are not too busy to participate in flame, but too busy
> to see an email from potential contributor.

I do no make infrastructure decisions. Also, thank you for
acknowledging it's a flame. Next step is to acknowledge your
responsibility for it.

> Last time I've used IRC was like 10 years ago. Another archaic tech
> I(anyone else willing to participate) have to use because why exactly?

Because it works for us.

> I'm not planning to work on GIMP any more, thank you very much.

That's OK. I'm sure you'll find your talent useful elsewhere.

>>> About your 3 cases of not responding - it's not my problem. It's your
>>> problem, as a maintainer of OSS.
>>
>> Blaming is _exactly_ what was sorely missing on the list. Thank you.
>>
>
> Turning tables #2. You pointed to 3 times you did not get the answer
> as a reason to dump Github idea.

You completely misunderstood my reasoning.

>> GitHub is full of developers who use Vi. Stuff like node-x11 is
>> actually written by dedicated Vi users, and I can think of a very few
>> things that are more hip than node.js.
>>
>
> https://media0.giphy.com/media/3h5pe45FM9qUM/giphy.gif

How very mature.

>>> who knows better than behaving like a jerk.
>>
>> Name-calling was sorely missing on this list too. Again, thank you.
>>
>> If you are done with that, what are, in your opinion, the actual
>> advantages of relying on GitHub other than it's full of hip people who
>> despise Vi?
>>
>
> Turning tables #3.
>
> You know, issues, project boards, UI what does not require reloading a
> page to see the update, etc,etc.

Why do you think any of that would make a huge difference for our
particular project? What actual programming/releasing experience with
GIMP do you have?

Alex
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Re: Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

Developers mailing list
In reply to this post by gregory grey
On Sun, May 07, 2017 at 02:04:04PM +0200, gregory grey wrote:
> It's not about Github necessarily, it's about the response tone etc.
[...]
> and your reply is basically "f*** off".
[..]
> who knows better than behaving like a jerk.

Who is the jerk here?

--


Marco Ciampa

I know a joke about UDP, but you might not get it.

------------------------

 GNU/Linux User #78271
 FSFE fellow #364

------------------------

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Re: Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

Chris Moller-3
In reply to this post by Developers mailing list
There's an American expression, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

GIMP development has been working well for a lot of years and I see
exactly zero reason to change something that works well.  I don't always
agree with minor bits of what the devs decide to do, but THEY'RE doing
the work and proposing fundamental changes that add nothing to the
coolness of GIMP helps no one.

Chris Moller



On 05/07/17 07:14, Marco Ciampa via gimp-developer-list wrote:

> On Sun, May 07, 2017 at 01:42:57PM +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
>> On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Ivano Arrighetta wrote:
>>> Hello there.
>>> My name is Ivano Arrighetta and I'm Italian.
>>> I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control
>> No.
>>
>>> and to use
>>> CMake for creating build projects for Windows and Mac OS, other than
>>> Makefiles for *nix.
>> CMake is just as painful as autohell.
> I confirm what Alexandre is saying, and I'm from Italy too... ;-)
>
>
> --
>
>
> Marco Ciampa
>
> I know a joke about UDP, but you might not get it.
>
> ------------------------
>
>   GNU/Linux User #78271
>   FSFE fellow #364
>
> ------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> gimp-developer-list mailing list
> List address:    [hidden email]
> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>
>

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Re: Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

gregory grey
In reply to this post by Alexandre Prokoudine
Using Github is infrastructure decision if there is one.

Why did you respond to question about it then?

I have experience releasing platforms consisting of dozens of complex
components in CI\CD fashion, developed by hundreds of ppl.

All I mentioned contributes to speed of releases immensely.


2017-05-07 15:08 GMT+02:00 Alexandre Prokoudine
<[hidden email]>:

> On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 3:54 PM, gregory grey wrote:
>
>>>> Now, a person says "I'd like to suggest" and your reply is basically
>>>> "f*** off".
>>>
>>> It's an interesting way to interpret a simple 'no'.
>>>
>>
>> Turning tables much? You should interpret the number of developers on
>> the projects into reasons of it being so.
>
> Irrelevant.
>
>>> Yes, our email communication needs to improve. However, do I really
>>> need to bring up our private email exchange where I explained to you
>>> that most dev conversations take place on IRC and that the difficult
>>> topics on the list barely ever take off?
>>>
>>
>> Apparently you are not too busy to participate in flame, but too busy
>> to see an email from potential contributor.
>
> I do no make infrastructure decisions. Also, thank you for
> acknowledging it's a flame. Next step is to acknowledge your
> responsibility for it.
>
>> Last time I've used IRC was like 10 years ago. Another archaic tech
>> I(anyone else willing to participate) have to use because why exactly?
>
> Because it works for us.
>
>> I'm not planning to work on GIMP any more, thank you very much.
>
> That's OK. I'm sure you'll find your talent useful elsewhere.
>
>>>> About your 3 cases of not responding - it's not my problem. It's your
>>>> problem, as a maintainer of OSS.
>>>
>>> Blaming is _exactly_ what was sorely missing on the list. Thank you.
>>>
>>
>> Turning tables #2. You pointed to 3 times you did not get the answer
>> as a reason to dump Github idea.
>
> You completely misunderstood my reasoning.
>
>>> GitHub is full of developers who use Vi. Stuff like node-x11 is
>>> actually written by dedicated Vi users, and I can think of a very few
>>> things that are more hip than node.js.
>>>
>>
>> https://media0.giphy.com/media/3h5pe45FM9qUM/giphy.gif
>
> How very mature.
>
>>>> who knows better than behaving like a jerk.
>>>
>>> Name-calling was sorely missing on this list too. Again, thank you.
>>>
>>> If you are done with that, what are, in your opinion, the actual
>>> advantages of relying on GitHub other than it's full of hip people who
>>> despise Vi?
>>>
>>
>> Turning tables #3.
>>
>> You know, issues, project boards, UI what does not require reloading a
>> page to see the update, etc,etc.
>
> Why do you think any of that would make a huge difference for our
> particular project? What actual programming/releasing experience with
> GIMP do you have?
>
> Alex
> _______________________________________________
> gimp-developer-list mailing list
> List address:    [hidden email]
> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list



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Re: Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

Shlomi Fish
In reply to this post by Alexandre Prokoudine
Dear Alexandre,

I agree with Gregory that your original reply to the original suggestion was
phrased too laconically, and came across as rude, impolite, and unfriendly. You
should try to improve such replies in the future, in order to make potential
contributors feel more welcome.

I've written about it many years ago here:
http://www.gimpusers.com/forums/gimp-developer/5878-rudeness-on-gimp-devel-and-bugzilla-was-re-tools

----

As a side note regarding IRC - old does not necessarily imply it is bad (see
http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/show.cgi?id=two-kinds-of-fools ) and
one can normally find some unified clients to communicate on more than one
service.

Regards,

        Shlomi Fish


On
Sun, 7 May 2017 16:08:24 +0300 Alexandre Prokoudine
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 3:54 PM, gregory grey wrote:
>
> >>> Now, a person says "I'd like to suggest" and your reply is basically
> >>> "f*** off".  
> >>
> >> It's an interesting way to interpret a simple 'no'.
> >>  
> >
> > Turning tables much? You should interpret the number of developers on
> > the projects into reasons of it being so.  
>
> Irrelevant.
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Re: Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

Alexandre Prokoudine
On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> Dear Alexandre,
>
> I agree with Gregory that your original reply to the original suggestion was
> phrased too laconically, and came across as rude, impolite, and unfriendly. You
> should try to improve such replies in the future, in order to make potential
> contributors feel more welcome.

I have already provided a slightly more verbose reply at
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=782284.

Alex
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Re: Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

Alexandre Prokoudine
In reply to this post by gregory grey
On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 4:32 PM, gregory grey wrote:
> Using Github is infrastructure decision if there is one.
>
> Why did you respond to question about it then?

Because if nobody replied your emails _at all_, _that_ could be
considered rude and unfriendly.

> I have experience releasing platforms consisting of dozens of complex
> components in CI\CD fashion, developed by hundreds of ppl.
>
> All I mentioned contributes to speed of releases immensely.

I can't help myself noticing that you didn't reply to my question
about your hands-on experience with releasing GIMP. Would it be safe
to assume that you have none? So your estimation of "immensely
contributing to the speed of releases" is based on your general
involvement with software project rather than this particular project?

Alex
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Re: Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

Shlomi Fish
In reply to this post by Chris Moller-3
Hi Chris,

On Sun, 07 May 2017 09:31:29 -0400
Chris Moller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There's an American expression, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
>

You can find a rebuttal of this phrase, in a different context here:
https://szabgab.com/what-does--if-it-aint-broke-dont-fix-it--really-mean.html .

> GIMP development has been working well for a lot of years and I see
> exactly zero reason to change something that works well.  I don't always
> agree with minor bits of what the devs decide to do, but THEY'RE doing
> the work and proposing fundamental changes that add nothing to the
> coolness of GIMP helps no one.
>

I see some problems with GIMP development:

1. It's been taking too long to release new major versions.

2. There has been a problem to attract new developers and contributors.

3. GIMP is lacking many features that are present in similar proprietary
programs.

4. Some people still complain on GIMP being hard to use.

5. A personal pet peeve - https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=781340
(minor problem).

----------

So there's certainly room for improvement and it won't be a good idea not to
seek out ways to improve it. I'm not saying that moving to github and/or cmake
is the way to go, but we still should try to improve.

Regards,

        Shlomi Fish

> Chris Moller
>
>
>
> On 05/07/17 07:14, Marco Ciampa via gimp-developer-list wrote:
> > On Sun, May 07, 2017 at 01:42:57PM +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:  
> >> On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Ivano Arrighetta wrote:  
> >>> Hello there.
> >>> My name is Ivano Arrighetta and I'm Italian.
> >>> I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control  
> >> No.
> >>  
> >>> and to use
> >>> CMake for creating build projects for Windows and Mac OS, other than
> >>> Makefiles for *nix.  
> >> CMake is just as painful as autohell.  
> > I confirm what Alexandre is saying, and I'm from Italy too... ;-)
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > Marco Ciampa
> >
> > I know a joke about UDP, but you might not get it.
> >
> > ------------------------
> >
> >   GNU/Linux User #78271
> >   FSFE fellow #364
> >
> > ------------------------
> >
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> >
> >  
>
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mdn
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Re: Please migrate to GitHub/CMake

mdn
In reply to this post by Ivano Arrighetta-2
Why do people wants to centralize over github ?
I am seeing that question on many projects.
Github has been unfriendly over free/libre software
See:
https://mikegerwitz.com/about/githubbub
and the new TOS give them some strange copyright over your copyleft
software (if you did put a copyleft license on your code)
There's gitlab available if people wants to make their own server which
is recommend or use one of the already gitlab servers available somewhere.

Le 07/05/2017 12:40, Ivano Arrighetta a écrit :

> Hello there.
> My name is Ivano Arrighetta and I'm Italian.
> I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control, and to
> use CMake for creating build projects for Windows and Mac OS, other than
> Makefiles for *nix.
> GitHub also offers a WebSite builder and a Wiki for each repository,
> other than an issue tracker.
>
> I'm pretty sure everyone would benefit from this.
>
> Bye, Ivano.
>
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