Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

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Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Ruben Safir
Hello

I've been using the GIMP for decades at this point.  It has been bothing
me that of late (and I am old so late can mean years :) ) that I rotate
the image 90% and it doesn't prent in the correct orientation on my
websites.  This is getting to be a real PIA.  With JPGs, you can't just
remove the EXIF data without reprocessing the entire image.  I have
resorted to trying to edit the files in VIM and removing the EXIF data.

But that has lead me another issue, and this is ration serious.  It is
easier to so than tell:


--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002

http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

identify -verbose bike.jpg
Image:
  Filename: bike.jpg
  Format: JPEG (Joint Photographic Experts Group JFIF format)
  Mime type: image/jpeg
  Class: DirectClass
  Geometry: 1832x3620+0+0
  Resolution: 72x72
  Print size: 25.4444x50.2778
  Units: PixelsPerInch
  Colorspace: sRGB
  Type: TrueColor
  Base type: Undefined
  Endianness: Undefined
  Depth: 8-bit
  Channel depth:
    Red: 8-bit
    Green: 8-bit
    Blue: 8-bit
  Channel statistics:
    Pixels: 6631840
    Red:
      min: 0  (0)
      max: 255 (1)
      mean: 145.794 (0.57174)
      standard deviation: 61.1867 (0.239948)
      kurtosis: -0.132901
      skewness: -0.732458
      entropy: 0.956963
    Green:
      min: 0  (0)
      max: 255 (1)
      mean: 155.806 (0.611003)
      standard deviation: 61.8764 (0.242653)
      kurtosis: 0.0106681
      skewness: -0.812128
      entropy: 0.955907
    Blue:
      min: 0  (0)
      max: 255 (1)
      mean: 167.08 (0.655215)
      standard deviation: 63.0794 (0.24737)
      kurtosis: 0.340558
      skewness: -0.937852
      entropy: 0.94217
  Image statistics:
    Overall:
      min: 0  (0)
      max: 255 (1)
      mean: 156.226 (0.612652)
      standard deviation: 62.0475 (0.243324)
      kurtosis: 0.0188642
      skewness: -0.796576
      entropy: 0.95168
  Rendering intent: Perceptual
  Gamma: 0.454545
  Chromaticity:
    red primary: (0.64,0.33)
    green primary: (0.3,0.6)
    blue primary: (0.15,0.06)
    white point: (0.3127,0.329)
  Matte color: grey74
  Background color: white
  Border color: srgb(223,223,223)
  Transparent color: none
  Interlace: JPEG
  Intensity: Undefined
  Compose: Over
  Page geometry: 1832x3620+0+0
  Dispose: Undefined
  Iterations: 0
  Compression: JPEG
  Quality: 97
  Orientation: LeftBottom
  Convex hull: 0,0 1831,0 1831,3618 1829,3619 0,3619 0,0
  Minimum bounding box: 1831,0 1831,3619 0,3619 0,0
  Profiles:
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    Profile-icc: 672 bytes
    Profile-xmp: 3712 bytes
  Properties:
    comment: binary comment
    date:create: 2020-09-30T00:04:16+00:00
    date:modify: 2020-09-30T00:04:16+00:00
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    exif:Artist: RUBEN SAFIR
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    exif:LensModel: EF100mm f/2.8 Macro USM
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    exif:Make: Canon
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    exif:MeteringMode: 5
    exif:Model: Canon EOS REBEL T3
    exif:PhotographicSensitivity: 125
    exif:PixelXDimension: 4272
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    exif:RecommendedExposureIndex: 125
    exif:SceneCaptureType: 0
    exif:SensitivityType: 2
    exif:ShutterSpeedValue: 458752/65536
    exif:Software: GIMP 2.10.20
    exif:SubSecTime: 40
    exif:SubSecTimeDigitized: 40
    exif:SubSecTimeOriginal: 40
    exif:thumbnail:BitsPerSample: 8, 8, 8
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    exif:YCbCrPositioning: 2
    icc:copyright: Public Domain
    icc:description: GIMP built-in sRGB
    icc:manufacturer: GIMP
    icc:model: sRGB
    jpeg:colorspace: 2
    jpeg:sampling-factor: 1x1,1x1,1x1
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  Number pixels: 6631840
  Pixels per second: 25.553MP
  User time: 0.170u
  Elapsed time: 0:01.259
  Version: ImageMagick 7.0.10-29 Q16 x86_64 2020-09-06
https://imagemagick.org


Is the GIMP declaring my images and Public Domain copyright?  That would
be not cool.


One final thing.  When I resize images now, I am left with an Layer or
Canvas that is still the original size and I have to manually flatten
the image.  This is a huge time waster and not the original behavior of
the GIMP.  Maybe there is an preference option on this?
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Re: Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Liam R. E. Quin
On Wed, 2020-09-30 at 12:58 -0400, Ruben Safir wrote:
>   With JPGs, you can't just
> remove the EXIF data without reprocessing the entire image. 
You can if you use software tht does it such as jpegtran or exiftool.

>
> But that has lead me another issue, and this is ration serious.  It
> is
> easier to so than tell:
>

>   icc:copyright: Public Domain

This means the ICC colour profile embedded in the image is inthe public
domain, not the actual image.

> When I resize images now, I am left with an Layer or
> Canvas that is still the original size and I have to manually flatten
> the image.

How *EXACTLY* are you resizing the image? This does not happen here.

Lia,(slave ankh)

--
Liam Quin, https://www.delightfulcomputing.com/
Available for XML/Document/Information Architecture/XSLT/
XSL/XQuery/Web/Text Processing/A11Y training, work & consulting.
Barefoot Web-slave, antique illustrations:  http://www.fromoldbooks.org

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Re: Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Øyvind Kolås-2
In reply to this post by Ruben Safir
On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Ruben Safir <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello
>
> I've been using the GIMP for decades at this point.  It has been bothing
> me that of late (and I am old so late can mean years :) ) that I rotate
> the image 90% and it doesn't prent in the correct orientation on my
> websites.  This is getting to be a real PIA.  With JPGs, you can't just
> remove the EXIF data without reprocessing the entire image.  I have
> resorted to trying to edit the files in VIM and removing the EXIF data.
>
> But that has lead me another issue, and this is ration serious.  It is
> easier to so than tell:
>
> identify -verbose bike.jpg
> Image:
>   Filename: bike.jpg
>   Format: JPEG (Joint Photographic Experts Group JFIF format)
..
>   Profiles:
>     Profile-exif: 19590 bytes
>     Profile-icc: 672 bytes
>     Profile-xmp: 3712 bytes
>   Properties:
..

>     exif:Model: Canon EOS REBEL T3
>     exif:PhotographicSensitivity: 125
>     exif:PixelXDimension: 4272
>     exif:Software: GIMP 2.10.20
>     icc:copyright: Public Domain
>     icc:description: GIMP built-in sRGB
>     icc:manufacturer: GIMP
>     icc:model: sRGB
>
> Is the GIMP declaring my images and Public Domain copyright?  That would
> be not cool.

You seem to be spooked by identify's line reported as "icc:copyright:
Public Domain", this is the copyright on the 672byte ICC profile
embedded as part of the exif data (as indicated by the icc: prefix for
the key).

/pippin
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Re: Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Liam R E Quin
In reply to this post by Ruben Safir
On Wed, 2020-09-30 at 12:58 -0400, Ruben Safir wrote:
>   With JPGs, you can't just
> remove the EXIF data without reprocessing the entire image. 
You can if you use software that does it, such as jpegtran or exiftool.

>
> But that has lead me another issue, and this is ration serious.  It
> is
> easier to so than tell:
>

>   icc:copyright: Public Domain

This means the ICC colour profile embedded in the image is inthe public
domain, not the actual image.

> When I resize images now, I am left with an Layer or
> Canvas that is still the original size and I have to manually flatten
> the image.

How *EXACTLY* are you resizing the image? This does not happen here.

Lia,(slave ankh)


--
Liam Quin - web slave for https://www.fromoldbooks.org/
with fabulous vintage art and fascinating texts to read.
Click here to have the slave beaten.

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Re: Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Ruben Safir
thanks for the info on the copyright notice

>
> How *EXACTLY* are you resizing the image? This does not happen here.
>
> Lia,(slave ankh)
>

Exactly as you would, but it does happen here.

although it didn't previously


--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com 

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com 

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

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Re: Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Liam R E Quin
On Thu, 2020-10-01 at 00:56 -0400, Ruben Safir wrote:
> thanks for the info on the copyright notice
>
> >
> > How *EXACTLY* are you resizing the image? This does not happen
> > here.
> >
>
> Exactly as you would, but it does happen here.

So, you are using image->scale image, and entering the new size
numerically?

i'm asking because there's more than one way to resize an image...


thanks,

slave liam


--
Liam Quin - web slave for https://www.fromoldbooks.org/
with fabulous vintage art and fascinating texts to read.
Click here to have the slave beaten.

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Re: Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Ruben Safir
On Thu, Oct 01, 2020 at 01:04:31PM -0400, Liam R E Quin wrote:

> On Thu, 2020-10-01 at 00:56 -0400, Ruben Safir wrote:
> > thanks for the info on the copyright notice
> >
> > >
> > > How *EXACTLY* are you resizing the image? This does not happen
> > > here.
> > >
> >
> > Exactly as you would, but it does happen here.
>
> So, you are using image->scale image, and entering the new size
> numerically?
>
> i'm asking because there's more than one way to resize an image...
>


correct, although I might use the graphic slide rule with the locked
ratios.


>
> thanks,
>
> slave liam
>
>
> --
> Liam Quin - web slave for https://www.fromoldbooks.org/
> with fabulous vintage art and fascinating texts to read.
> Click here to have the slave beaten.

--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com 

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com 

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

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Re: Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Liam R E Quin
On Thu, 2020-10-01 at 18:23 -0400, Ruben Safir wrote:
> >
> > So, you are using image->scale image, and entering the new size
> > numerically?
> >
> > i'm asking because there's more than one way to resize an image...
>
> correct, although I might use the graphic slide rule with the locked
> ratios.

Image/Scale Image hasn't changed - i take it you're using GIMP 2.10.20
on Windows 10?

I'mguessing by the "graphic slide rule" you mean the crop tool; this
_has_ changed by default, as it no longer discards pixels outside the
new canvas area. To get back to the old behaviour, choose
"Delete Cropped pixels" in tool options.

slave liam

--
Liam Quin - web slave for https://www.fromoldbooks.org/
with fabulous vintage art and fascinating texts to read.
Click here to have the slave rewarded with more chores.

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Re: Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Ruben Safir
On Thu, Oct 01, 2020 at 07:47:21PM -0400, Liam R E Quin wrote:

> On Thu, 2020-10-01 at 18:23 -0400, Ruben Safir wrote:
> > >
> > > So, you are using image->scale image, and entering the new size
> > > numerically?
> > >
> > > i'm asking because there's more than one way to resize an image...
> >
> > correct, although I might use the graphic slide rule with the locked
> > ratios.
>
> Image/Scale Image hasn't changed - i take it you're using GIMP 2.10.20
> on Windows 10?


No, why would you do that?

This is on GNU/Linux

>
> I'mguessing by the "graphic slide rule" you mean the crop tool;

No, but as you mention it, this is also a huge PIA

> this
> _has_ changed by default, as it no longer discards pixels outside the
> new canvas area. To get back to the old behaviour, choose
> "Delete Cropped pixels" in tool options.

Thanks


>
> slave liam
>
> --
> Liam Quin - web slave for https://www.fromoldbooks.org/
> with fabulous vintage art and fascinating texts to read.
> Click here to have the slave rewarded with more chores.

--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com 

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com 

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

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Re: Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Ruben Safir
In reply to this post by Liam R E Quin
On 10/1/20 7:47 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote:
> I'mguessing by the "graphic slide rule" you mean the crop tool; this
> _has_ changed by default, as it no longer discards pixels outside the
> new canvas area. To get back to the old behaviour, choose
> "Delete Cropped pixels" in tool options.

there is no such thing..



--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002

http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
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Re: Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Ruben Safir
In reply to this post by Liam R E Quin
On 10/1/20 7:47 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote:
> "Delete Cropped pixels"


Honestly, with every change the gimp is getting harder and harder to
use, and it is time to find an alternative.  For nearly 20 year now,
every change has been screwing the end user.  The stupidist one is the
save/export fiasco.  It's inability to rotate correctly is just rank
amateurness and it wasn't always the case. This BS with the crop was
fixing another non problem to make the program miserable to use.
Control Z works.  Making a copy and working on that also works.  This
was just a crap change and now every crop needs to have me hunting
through the menus to ... to like CROP.

You want a "non-destructive crop" then DON'T CROP.


I mean, really, what the hell is wrong with these developers.  This is a
mature product that has been in use for DECADES.  It is not a private
playground for your masters degree thesis and every idea out of the
slaveware world is no a good one to be duplicated.

the situation with the elimination of the toolbox, that was just INSANE.

To this DAY the one feature that would be really useful, a file selector
with thumbnails, like something xv could do in the mid-1990s, the gimp
STILL can't do that.

--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002

http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
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Re: Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Ofnuts-2
In reply to this post by Ruben Safir
On 30/09/2020 18:58, Ruben Safir wrote:

> Hello
>
> I've been using the GIMP for decades at this point.  It has been bothing
> me that of late (and I am old so late can mean years :) ) that I rotate
> the image 90% and it doesn't prent in the correct orientation on my
> websites.  This is getting to be a real PIA.  With JPGs, you can't just
> remove the EXIF data without reprocessing the entire image.  I have
> resorted to trying to edit the files in VIM and removing the EXIF data.
>
> But that has lead me another issue, and this is ration serious.  It is
> easier to so than tell:
>
>
You can use ExifTool to change the Exif on a JPG (without
decompressing/recompressing).

But AFAIK when Gimp edits an image, it removes the Exif Orientation
flag, so the image should be displayed with the default orientation,
which is how Gimp itself displays the image. The Orientation flag is
indeed missing in the EXIF dump you attached. I strongly suggest that
you try to display the images with various images viewers (including
browsers showing the image "bare" without any HTML) before pointing
fingers, and check if the HTML of your site doesn't contain attributes
that rotate images.

Last, the exported image is what you see on the canvas, an dis the size
of the canvas. Out-of-canvas parts are automatically cropped on export,
there is no need to flatten the image first.




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Re: Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Ruben Safir
On Fri, Oct 02, 2020 at 10:44:26PM +0200, Ofnuts wrote:

> On 30/09/2020 18:58, Ruben Safir wrote:
> >Hello
> >
> >I've been using the GIMP for decades at this point.  It has been bothing
> >me that of late (and I am old so late can mean years :) ) that I rotate
> >the image 90% and it doesn't prent in the correct orientation on my
> >websites.  This is getting to be a real PIA.  With JPGs, you can't just
> >remove the EXIF data without reprocessing the entire image.  I have
> >resorted to trying to edit the files in VIM and removing the EXIF data.
> >
> >But that has lead me another issue, and this is ration serious.  It is
> >easier to so than tell:
> >
> >
> You can use ExifTool to change the Exif on a JPG (without
> decompressing/recompressing).
>
> But AFAIK when Gimp edits an image, it removes the Exif Orientation
> flag, so the image should be displayed with the default orientation,

Whatever it is doing it is doing it 100% wrong 100% of the time and I
have to go into the file with VIM and remove the exif.

And somehow it is putting my name in there.  Is that really necessary as
if I don't have enough things tracking me the universe.

I don't think it is coming from my Cannon Camera.

If you want, I can demonstrate this.  Remove the EXIF and it orients
correctly.


I just fixed
http://www.mrbrklyn.com/brooklyn/images/2020_09_fishing/bike.jpg

by MANUALLY removeing the EXIF data from near top of the file.  
It was correct in the GIMP and sideway in most of the rest of the
world..most importantly in Firefox et al




> which is how Gimp itself displays the image. The Orientation flag is
> indeed missing in the EXIF dump you attached. I strongly suggest that
> you try to display the images with various images viewers (including
> browsers showing the image "bare" without any HTML) before pointing
> fingers, and check if the HTML of your site doesn't contain attributes
> that rotate images.
>
> Last, the exported image is what you see on the canvas, an dis the size
> of the canvas. Out-of-canvas parts are automatically cropped on export,
> there is no need to flatten the image first.
>

That is good.  But there is even less need for the crop to be broken
because someone doesn't know how to use CTL Z.


BTW - Zelous crop seems to be broken now as well.  It just does nothing
now.



>
>
>
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--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com 

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com 

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

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Re: Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Ofnuts-2
On 02/10/2020 23:33, Ruben Safir wrote:
>> But AFAIK when Gimp edits an image, it removes the Exif Orientation
>> flag, so the image should be displayed with the default orientation,
> Whatever it is doing it is doing it 100% wrong 100% of the time and I
> have to go into the file with VIM and remove the exif.

No such problem for me, and again, there are free tools to remove EXIF
if necessary, for instance with ExifTool:

     exiftool -all= {file}

> And somehow it is putting my name in there.  Is that really necessary as
> if I don't have enough things tracking me the universe.
>
> I don't think it is coming from my Cannon Camera.

Either your camera or you have entered a default comment. Create an
image from scratch with Gimp and see if it contains your name...

> If you want, I can demonstrate this.  Remove the EXIF and it orients
> correctly.
>
>
> I just fixed
> http://www.mrbrklyn.com/brooklyn/images/2020_09_fishing/bike.jpg
>
> by MANUALLY removeing the EXIF data from near top of the file.
> It was correct in the GIMP and sideway in most of the rest of the
> world..most importantly in Firefox et al

You are not demonstrating anything, we need the before and after images.

>> Last, the exported image is what you see on the canvas, an dis the size
>> of the canvas. Out-of-canvas parts are automatically cropped on export,
>> there is no need to flatten the image first.
>>
> That is good.  But there is even less need for the crop to be broken
> because someone doesn't know how to use CTL Z.


Crop is not broken... for most purposes (especially exporting the
result) it works as before. And if you set the "Delete cropped pixels"
option, just save your tool options to have it become a default for you.


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Re: Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Ruben Safir
On Sat, Oct 03, 2020 at 12:23:18AM +0200, Ofnuts wrote:

> On 02/10/2020 23:33, Ruben Safir wrote:
> >>But AFAIK when Gimp edits an image, it removes the Exif Orientation
> >>flag, so the image should be displayed with the default orientation,
> >Whatever it is doing it is doing it 100% wrong 100% of the time and I
> >have to go into the file with VIM and remove the exif.
>
> No such problem for me, and again, there are free tools to remove EXIF
> if necessary, for instance with ExifTool:
>
>     exiftool -all= {file}
>

Or it can just be done correctly in the primary image manipulation tool,
within the Gimp

> >And somehow it is putting my name in there.  Is that really necessary as
> >if I don't have enough things tracking me the universe.
> >
> >I don't think it is coming from my Cannon Camera.
>
> Either your camera or you have entered a default comment. Create an
> image from scratch with Gimp and see if it contains your name...
>
> >If you want, I can demonstrate this.  Remove the EXIF and it orients
> >correctly.
> >
> >
> >I just fixed
> >http://www.mrbrklyn.com/brooklyn/images/2020_09_fishing/bike.jpg
> >
> >by MANUALLY removeing the EXIF data from near top of the file.
> >It was correct in the GIMP and sideway in most of the rest of the
> >world..most importantly in Firefox et al
>
> You are not demonstrating anything, we need the before and after images.
>
I am aware of that.  I can demostrate it easily enough

Before =>
http://www.mrbrklyn.com/brooklyn/images/2020_09_fishing/IMG_4577.JPG

After =>
http://www.mrbrklyn.com/brooklyn/images/2020_09_fishing/IMG_4577.2.JPG

the EXIF needs to be fixed..

> >>Last, the exported image is what you see on the canvas, an dis the size
> >>of the canvas. Out-of-canvas parts are automatically cropped on export,
> >>there is no need to flatten the image first.
> >>
> >That is good.  But there is even less need for the crop to be broken
> >because someone doesn't know how to use CTL Z.
>
>
> Crop is not broken... for most purposes (especially exporting the
> result) it works as before. And if you set the "Delete cropped pixels"
> option, just save your tool options to have it become a default for you.
>

This is doesn't exist in this gimp version, GIMP 2.10.


Actually, I finaly found it, under, of all place, dockable dialogs :(


BTW - what it does, in addition to just being annoying, is it
takes screen space.  It is broken.  It was working perectly.  
This is not trivial word play.  It was working.  It cropped
perfectly, and now it leaves the canvas too large, produces
a confusing layer, takes up unecessary screen space, and fails
to actually crop because someone didn't know how to use CTL Z

This defines broken
http://www.nylxs.com/images/gimp_broken.jpg

If you don't like the frame of your crop then just CTL Z and recrop

Its not that hard.  Even a graphic artist can do it.

>
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--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com 

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com 

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

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Re: Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Ruben Safir
In reply to this post by Ofnuts-2
> >I don't think it is coming from my Cannon Camera.
>
> Either your camera or you have entered a default comment. Create an
> image from scratch with Gimp and see if it contains your name...

Maybe I set this up in the GIMP?  Where?

It is not in the camera
[ruben@flatbush 105___10]$ strings IMG_4588.JPG |grep Ruben

nadah

>
> >If you want, I can demonstrate this.  Remove the EXIF and it orients
> >correctly.
> >
> >
> >I just fixed
> >http://www.mrbrklyn.com/brooklyn/images/2020_09_fishing/bike.jpg
> >
> >by MANUALLY removeing the EXIF data from near top of the file.
> >It was correct in the GIMP and sideway in most of the rest of the
> >world..most importantly in Firefox et al
>
> You are not demonstrating anything, we need the before and after images.
>
> >>Last, the exported image is what you see on the canvas, an dis the size
> >>of the canvas. Out-of-canvas parts are automatically cropped on export,
> >>there is no need to flatten the image first.
> >>
> >That is good.  But there is even less need for the crop to be broken
> >because someone doesn't know how to use CTL Z.
>
>
> Crop is not broken... for most purposes (especially exporting the
> result) it works as before. And if you set the "Delete cropped pixels"
> option, just save your tool options to have it become a default for you.
>
>
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--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com 

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com 

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

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Re: Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Users mailing list
In reply to this post by Ruben Safir
On 10/2/20 5:10 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 03, 2020 at 12:23:18AM +0200, Ofnuts wrote:
>> On 02/10/2020 23:33, Ruben Safir wrote:
>>>> But AFAIK when Gimp edits an image, it removes the Exif Orientation
>>>> flag, so the image should be displayed with the default orientation,
>>> Whatever it is doing it is doing it 100% wrong 100% of the time and I
>>> have to go into the file with VIM and remove the exif.
>> No such problem for me, and again, there are free tools to remove EXIF
>> if necessary, for instance with ExifTool:
>>
>>      exiftool -all= {file}
>>
> Or it can just be done correctly in the primary image manipulation tool,
> within the Gimp
>
>>> And somehow it is putting my name in there.  Is that really necessary as
>>> if I don't have enough things tracking me the universe.
>>>
>>> I don't think it is coming from my Cannon Camera.
>> Either your camera or you have entered a default comment. Create an
>> image from scratch with Gimp and see if it contains your name...
>>
>>> If you want, I can demonstrate this.  Remove the EXIF and it orients
>>> correctly.
>>>
>>>
>>> I just fixed
>>> http://www.mrbrklyn.com/brooklyn/images/2020_09_fishing/bike.jpg
>>>
>>> by MANUALLY removeing the EXIF data from near top of the file.
>>> It was correct in the GIMP and sideway in most of the rest of the
>>> world..most importantly in Firefox et al
>> You are not demonstrating anything, we need the before and after images.
>>
> I am aware of that.  I can demostrate it easily enough
>
> Before =>
> http://www.mrbrklyn.com/brooklyn/images/2020_09_fishing/IMG_4577.JPG
>
> After =>
> http://www.mrbrklyn.com/brooklyn/images/2020_09_fishing/IMG_4577.2.JPG
>
> the EXIF needs to be fixed..

Thanks for posting the sample images.  Please excuse me but I don't
understand what the problem is.  Is it the "After" image is _not_
supposed to appear 90-degrees rotated?  When I view the "After" image in
Firefox (and Opera), it appears rotated 90-degrees.

Thanks!


>>>> Last, the exported image is what you see on the canvas, an dis the size
>>>> of the canvas. Out-of-canvas parts are automatically cropped on export,
>>>> there is no need to flatten the image first.
>>>>
>>> That is good.  But there is even less need for the crop to be broken
>>> because someone doesn't know how to use CTL Z.
>>
>> Crop is not broken... for most purposes (especially exporting the
>> result) it works as before. And if you set the "Delete cropped pixels"
>> option, just save your tool options to have it become a default for you.
>>
> This is doesn't exist in this gimp version, GIMP 2.10.
>
>
> Actually, I finaly found it, under, of all place, dockable dialogs :(
>
>
> BTW - what it does, in addition to just being annoying, is it
> takes screen space.  It is broken.  It was working perectly.
> This is not trivial word play.  It was working.  It cropped
> perfectly, and now it leaves the canvas too large, produces
> a confusing layer, takes up unecessary screen space, and fails
> to actually crop because someone didn't know how to use CTL Z
>
> This defines broken
> http://www.nylxs.com/images/gimp_broken.jpg
>
> If you don't like the frame of your crop then just CTL Z and recrop
>
> Its not that hard.  Even a graphic artist can do it.
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gimp-user-list mailing list
>> List address:    [hidden email]
>> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Peace...

Tom


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Re: Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Ruben Safir
On Fri, Oct 02, 2020 at 05:30:48PM -0700, Tom via gimp-user-list wrote:

> On 10/2/20 5:10 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
> >On Sat, Oct 03, 2020 at 12:23:18AM +0200, Ofnuts wrote:
> >>On 02/10/2020 23:33, Ruben Safir wrote:
> >>>>But AFAIK when Gimp edits an image, it removes the Exif Orientation
> >>>>flag, so the image should be displayed with the default orientation,
> >>>Whatever it is doing it is doing it 100% wrong 100% of the time and I
> >>>have to go into the file with VIM and remove the exif.
> >>No such problem for me, and again, there are free tools to remove EXIF
> >>if necessary, for instance with ExifTool:
> >>
> >>     exiftool -all= {file}
> >>
> >Or it can just be done correctly in the primary image manipulation tool,
> >within the Gimp
> >
> >>>And somehow it is putting my name in there.  Is that really necessary as
> >>>if I don't have enough things tracking me the universe.
> >>>
> >>>I don't think it is coming from my Cannon Camera.
> >>Either your camera or you have entered a default comment. Create an
> >>image from scratch with Gimp and see if it contains your name...
> >>
> >>>If you want, I can demonstrate this.  Remove the EXIF and it orients
> >>>correctly.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I just fixed
> >>>http://www.mrbrklyn.com/brooklyn/images/2020_09_fishing/bike.jpg
> >>>
> >>>by MANUALLY removeing the EXIF data from near top of the file.
> >>>It was correct in the GIMP and sideway in most of the rest of the
> >>>world..most importantly in Firefox et al
> >>You are not demonstrating anything, we need the before and after images.
> >>
> >I am aware of that.  I can demostrate it easily enough
> >
> >Before =>
> >http://www.mrbrklyn.com/brooklyn/images/2020_09_fishing/IMG_4577.JPG
> >
> >After =>
> >http://www.mrbrklyn.com/brooklyn/images/2020_09_fishing/IMG_4577.2.JPG
> >
> >the EXIF needs to be fixed..
>
> Thanks for posting the sample images.  Please excuse me but I don't
> understand what the problem is.  Is it the "After" image is _not_
> supposed to appear 90-degrees rotated?  When I view the "After"
> image in Firefox (and Opera), it appears rotated 90-degrees.
>
> Thanks!
>


The original is 90° tilted as I tilted the camera to get a verticle
image


It opens in the gimp sideways, as it should since I took the pic that
way.

The "after pic" is rotated to the correct position.
... or it should be.

It is in the GIMP

It exif is pointing it to the incorrect orientation now.
This is an example of tech trying to make things "simple"
and they are not simple.  They are broken.  

When you rotation the image the exif that is saved needs to be
fixed, or eliminated.



>
> >>>>Last, the exported image is what you see on the canvas, an dis the size
> >>>>of the canvas. Out-of-canvas parts are automatically cropped on export,
> >>>>there is no need to flatten the image first.
> >>>>
> >>>That is good.  But there is even less need for the crop to be broken
> >>>because someone doesn't know how to use CTL Z.
> >>
> >>Crop is not broken... for most purposes (especially exporting the
> >>result) it works as before. And if you set the "Delete cropped pixels"
> >>option, just save your tool options to have it become a default for you.
> >>
> >This is doesn't exist in this gimp version, GIMP 2.10.
> >
> >
> >Actually, I finaly found it, under, of all place, dockable dialogs :(
> >
> >
> >BTW - what it does, in addition to just being annoying, is it
> >takes screen space.  It is broken.  It was working perectly.
> >This is not trivial word play.  It was working.  It cropped
> >perfectly, and now it leaves the canvas too large, produces
> >a confusing layer, takes up unecessary screen space, and fails
> >to actually crop because someone didn't know how to use CTL Z
> >
> >This defines broken
> >http://www.nylxs.com/images/gimp_broken.jpg
> >
> >If you don't like the frame of your crop then just CTL Z and recrop
> >
> >Its not that hard.  Even a graphic artist can do it.
> >
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>gimp-user-list mailing list
> >>List address:    [hidden email]
> >>List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
> >>List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
> Peace...
>
> Tom
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gimp-user-list mailing list
> List address:    [hidden email]
> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list

--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com 

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com 

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

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Re: Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Ruben Safir
You need to really download them and view them in the gimp and examine
the exif because on the original images coming out of the camera, SOME
applications, like new firefox, read the camera's orientation data
and display accordingly.  Some applications do not.  The solution is
to actually rotate the actual image.

Actually, if I was going to modernize this, there would be 2 options,
one to just rotate by chaning the exif data, and one to physically
rotate the image.


On Fri, Oct 02, 2020 at 08:53:43PM -0400, Ruben Safir wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 02, 2020 at 05:30:48PM -0700, Tom via gimp-user-list wrote:
> > On 10/2/20 5:10 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
> > >On Sat, Oct 03, 2020 at 12:23:18AM +0200, Ofnuts wrote:
> > >>On 02/10/2020 23:33, Ruben Safir wrote:
> > >>>>But AFAIK when Gimp edits an image, it removes the Exif Orientation
> > >>>>flag, so the image should be displayed with the default orientation,
> > >>>Whatever it is doing it is doing it 100% wrong 100% of the time and I
> > >>>have to go into the file with VIM and remove the exif.
> > >>No such problem for me, and again, there are free tools to remove EXIF
> > >>if necessary, for instance with ExifTool:
> > >>
> > >>     exiftool -all= {file}
> > >>
> > >Or it can just be done correctly in the primary image manipulation tool,
> > >within the Gimp
> > >
> > >>>And somehow it is putting my name in there.  Is that really necessary as
> > >>>if I don't have enough things tracking me the universe.
> > >>>
> > >>>I don't think it is coming from my Cannon Camera.
> > >>Either your camera or you have entered a default comment. Create an
> > >>image from scratch with Gimp and see if it contains your name...
> > >>
> > >>>If you want, I can demonstrate this.  Remove the EXIF and it orients
> > >>>correctly.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>I just fixed
> > >>>http://www.mrbrklyn.com/brooklyn/images/2020_09_fishing/bike.jpg
> > >>>
> > >>>by MANUALLY removeing the EXIF data from near top of the file.
> > >>>It was correct in the GIMP and sideway in most of the rest of the
> > >>>world..most importantly in Firefox et al
> > >>You are not demonstrating anything, we need the before and after images.
> > >>
> > >I am aware of that.  I can demostrate it easily enough
> > >
> > >Before =>
> > >http://www.mrbrklyn.com/brooklyn/images/2020_09_fishing/IMG_4577.JPG
> > >
> > >After =>
> > >http://www.mrbrklyn.com/brooklyn/images/2020_09_fishing/IMG_4577.2.JPG
> > >
> > >the EXIF needs to be fixed..
> >
> > Thanks for posting the sample images.  Please excuse me but I don't
> > understand what the problem is.  Is it the "After" image is _not_
> > supposed to appear 90-degrees rotated?  When I view the "After"
> > image in Firefox (and Opera), it appears rotated 90-degrees.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
>
>
> The original is 90° tilted as I tilted the camera to get a verticle
> image
>
>
> It opens in the gimp sideways, as it should since I took the pic that
> way.
>
> The "after pic" is rotated to the correct position.
> ... or it should be.
>
> It is in the GIMP
>
> It exif is pointing it to the incorrect orientation now.
> This is an example of tech trying to make things "simple"
> and they are not simple.  They are broken.  
>
> When you rotation the image the exif that is saved needs to be
> fixed, or eliminated.
>
>
>
> >
> > >>>>Last, the exported image is what you see on the canvas, an dis the size
> > >>>>of the canvas. Out-of-canvas parts are automatically cropped on export,
> > >>>>there is no need to flatten the image first.
> > >>>>
> > >>>That is good.  But there is even less need for the crop to be broken
> > >>>because someone doesn't know how to use CTL Z.
> > >>
> > >>Crop is not broken... for most purposes (especially exporting the
> > >>result) it works as before. And if you set the "Delete cropped pixels"
> > >>option, just save your tool options to have it become a default for you.
> > >>
> > >This is doesn't exist in this gimp version, GIMP 2.10.
> > >
> > >
> > >Actually, I finaly found it, under, of all place, dockable dialogs :(
> > >
> > >
> > >BTW - what it does, in addition to just being annoying, is it
> > >takes screen space.  It is broken.  It was working perectly.
> > >This is not trivial word play.  It was working.  It cropped
> > >perfectly, and now it leaves the canvas too large, produces
> > >a confusing layer, takes up unecessary screen space, and fails
> > >to actually crop because someone didn't know how to use CTL Z
> > >
> > >This defines broken
> > >http://www.nylxs.com/images/gimp_broken.jpg
> > >
> > >If you don't like the frame of your crop then just CTL Z and recrop
> > >
> > >Its not that hard.  Even a graphic artist can do it.
> > >
> > >>_______________________________________________
> > >>gimp-user-list mailing list
> > >>List address:    [hidden email]
> > >>List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
> > >>List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
> > Peace...
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gimp-user-list mailing list
> > List address:    [hidden email]
> > List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
> > List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>
> --
> So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
> that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
> proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
> http://www.mrbrklyn.com 
>
> DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
> http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
> http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
> http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
> http://www.brooklyn-living.com 
>
> Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
> but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
>
> _______________________________________________
> gimp-user-list mailing list
> List address:    [hidden email]
> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list

--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com 

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com 

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

_______________________________________________
gimp-user-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
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Re: Orientations, Copyright Notices, metadata, and resized layers

Users mailing list
On 10/2/20 5:57 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
> You need to really download them and view them in the gimp and examine
> the exif because on the original images coming out of the camera, SOME
> applications, like new firefox, read the camera's orientation data
> and display accordingly.  Some applications do not.  The solution is
> to actually rotate the actual image.
>
> Actually, if I was going to modernize this, there would be 2 options,
> one to just rotate by chaning the exif data, and one to physically
> rotate the image.

Thanks for the additional information (this message and the other
message).   I actually DID download both images and I opened them in
GIMP 2.10.20 on Ubuntu 20.04 Linux.  I opened the original image in
Firefox and it was rotated by 90-degress counter-clockwise, so it
appeared like this:

https://imgur.com/a/S5RRJE8

Of course, my highlighting in red didn't appear.  :)    So, then I
opened the original photo in GIMP and I was asked if I wanted to rotate
the photo or not, as shown here:

https://imgur.com/a/eICgy7a

When I opened the rotated photo you posted the link to, the "After"
photo, GIMP prompted me to rotate the photo, as shown here:

https://imgur.com/kozuYXt

Are you getting the same prompts from GIMP, when you open the photos? 
If so, which option do you choose?

Anyway, when I open the original photo in GIMP and choose "rotate", I
made NO other changes and simply exported the rotated image.  Then, I
opened that image in Firefox and it appeared correct:

https://imgur.com/a/tsgEiGF

I haven't touched ANY EXIF settings at all and when exporting from GIMP,
I used the export defaults, for JPEG, which included EXIF, XMP, and IPTC
information being saved with the file.  I think I understand your issue
with the image getting rotated unexpectedly, but I'm not necessarily
sure GIMP is at fault, at least not based on the steps I followed.

When you load the images, are you getting different results?  Which
version of GIMP are you using and on which operating system?

Thanks!

Peace...

Tom



>
>
> On Fri, Oct 02, 2020 at 08:53:43PM -0400, Ruben Safir wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 02, 2020 at 05:30:48PM -0700, Tom via gimp-user-list wrote:
>>> On 10/2/20 5:10 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
>>>> On Sat, Oct 03, 2020 at 12:23:18AM +0200, Ofnuts wrote:
>>>>> On 02/10/2020 23:33, Ruben Safir wrote:
>>>>>>> But AFAIK when Gimp edits an image, it removes the Exif Orientation
>>>>>>> flag, so the image should be displayed with the default orientation,
>>>>>> Whatever it is doing it is doing it 100% wrong 100% of the time and I
>>>>>> have to go into the file with VIM and remove the exif.
>>>>> No such problem for me, and again, there are free tools to remove EXIF
>>>>> if necessary, for instance with ExifTool:
>>>>>
>>>>>     exiftool -all= {file}
>>>>>
>>>> Or it can just be done correctly in the primary image manipulation tool,
>>>> within the Gimp
>>>>
>>>>>> And somehow it is putting my name in there.  Is that really necessary as
>>>>>> if I don't have enough things tracking me the universe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think it is coming from my Cannon Camera.
>>>>> Either your camera or you have entered a default comment. Create an
>>>>> image from scratch with Gimp and see if it contains your name...
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you want, I can demonstrate this.  Remove the EXIF and it orients
>>>>>> correctly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just fixed
>>>>>> http://www.mrbrklyn.com/brooklyn/images/2020_09_fishing/bike.jpg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> by MANUALLY removeing the EXIF data from near top of the file.
>>>>>> It was correct in the GIMP and sideway in most of the rest of the
>>>>>> world..most importantly in Firefox et al
>>>>> You are not demonstrating anything, we need the before and after images.
>>>>>
>>>> I am aware of that.  I can demostrate it easily enough
>>>>
>>>> Before =>
>>>> http://www.mrbrklyn.com/brooklyn/images/2020_09_fishing/IMG_4577.JPG
>>>>
>>>> After =>
>>>> http://www.mrbrklyn.com/brooklyn/images/2020_09_fishing/IMG_4577.2.JPG
>>>>
>>>> the EXIF needs to be fixed..
>>> Thanks for posting the sample images.  Please excuse me but I don't
>>> understand what the problem is.  Is it the "After" image is _not_
>>> supposed to appear 90-degrees rotated?  When I view the "After"
>>> image in Firefox (and Opera), it appears rotated 90-degrees.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>
>> The original is 90° tilted as I tilted the camera to get a verticle
>> image
>>
>>
>> It opens in the gimp sideways, as it should since I took the pic that
>> way.
>>
>> The "after pic" is rotated to the correct position.
>> ... or it should be.
>>
>> It is in the GIMP
>>
>> It exif is pointing it to the incorrect orientation now.
>> This is an example of tech trying to make things "simple"
>> and they are not simple.  They are broken.  
>>
>> When you rotation the image the exif that is saved needs to be
>> fixed, or eliminated.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>>> Last, the exported image is what you see on the canvas, an dis the size
>>>>>>> of the canvas. Out-of-canvas parts are automatically cropped on export,
>>>>>>> there is no need to flatten the image first.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is good.  But there is even less need for the crop to be broken
>>>>>> because someone doesn't know how to use CTL Z.
>>>>> Crop is not broken... for most purposes (especially exporting the
>>>>> result) it works as before. And if you set the "Delete cropped pixels"
>>>>> option, just save your tool options to have it become a default for you.
>>>>>
>>>> This is doesn't exist in this gimp version, GIMP 2.10.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Actually, I finaly found it, under, of all place, dockable dialogs :(
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> BTW - what it does, in addition to just being annoying, is it
>>>> takes screen space.  It is broken.  It was working perectly.
>>>> This is not trivial word play.  It was working.  It cropped
>>>> perfectly, and now it leaves the canvas too large, produces
>>>> a confusing layer, takes up unecessary screen space, and fails
>>>> to actually crop because someone didn't know how to use CTL Z
>>>>
>>>> This defines broken
>>>> http://www.nylxs.com/images/gimp_broken.jpg
>>>>
>>>> If you don't like the frame of your crop then just CTL Z and recrop
>>>>
>>>> Its not that hard.  Even a graphic artist can do it.
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> gimp-user-list mailing list
>>>>> List address:    [hidden email]
>>>>> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>>>>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>>> Peace...
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gimp-user-list mailing list
>>> List address:    [hidden email]
>>> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>> --
>> So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
>> that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
>> proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
>> http://www.mrbrklyn.com 
>>
>> DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
>> http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
>> http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
>> http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
>> http://www.brooklyn-living.com 
>>
>> Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
>> but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gimp-user-list mailing list
>> List address:    [hidden email]
>> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list


--
/When I leave, I don't know what I'm hoping to find,
And when I leave, I don't know what I'm leaving behind.../
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12