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MacOS

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Any foresight for an implementation of GIMP 2.10.18 for MacOS?  [I mean
official, not MacPorts (that uses XQuartz) nor Partha's].

If GIMP has problems with MacOS, what are these problems?

--
Maurizio Loreti  --  [hidden email]
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Re: MacOS

Users mailing list
Hello,

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 8:16 AM Maurizio Loreti via gimp-user-list <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Any foresight for an implementation of GIMP 2.10.18 for MacOS?  [I mean
> official, not MacPorts (that uses XQuartz) nor Partha's].
>

Isn't it you who already asked at least twice the same thing? The answer is
still the same as we told you several times already. Our (unique!) macOS
contributor has not been available for like more than a month. And to be
fair, I don't care as much about the macOS version of GIMP as I am worried
about this contributor and hoping he (and his family) is still fine as we
get no news.

Since you knew already about the situation, a bit of compassion would not
be a bad thing.


> If GIMP has problems with MacOS, what are these problems?
>

Isn't *no contributor* enough of a problem by itself? The problem is that
nobody seem to care enough to help this package happen (only enough to
**ask** for it apparently). We have called for contributors so many times
over the years (and again recently, so much there has even been a French
specialized mac-news website who relayed the call a few weeks ago!).
This contributor could be you if you want to help packaging!
The current version of scripts are there:
https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build

There are only 3 possible outcomes:
1/ This contributor finally comes back and he continues *alone* 😢 to do
all the mac packaging.
2/ Other people finally show they care by contributing.
3/ A mix of 1/ and 2/ which is the best outcome!

In none of these scenarios just asking without contributing helps in any
way.
Thanks for either helping or understanding. 🙂

Jehan


> --
> Maurizio Loreti  --  [hidden email]
> _______________________________________________
> gimp-user-list mailing list
> List address:    [hidden email]
> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>


--
ZeMarmot open animation film
http://film.zemarmot.net
Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
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Re: MacOS

Users mailing list
Jehan,

I'm the macOS packager for LMMS.  I might be able to help out in his
absence.  LMMS is written in Qt, so the dependency stack is much
different than Gimp which is Gtk, but if there's a documented build process
via MacPorts or Homebrew, I can take a swing at it.

Credentials: https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/pull/2271


-Tres

- [hidden email]


On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:11 PM Jehan Pagès via gimp-user-list <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 8:16 AM Maurizio Loreti via gimp-user-list <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Any foresight for an implementation of GIMP 2.10.18 for MacOS?  [I mean
> > official, not MacPorts (that uses XQuartz) nor Partha's].
> >
>
> Isn't it you who already asked at least twice the same thing? The answer is
> still the same as we told you several times already. Our (unique!) macOS
> contributor has not been available for like more than a month. And to be
> fair, I don't care as much about the macOS version of GIMP as I am worried
> about this contributor and hoping he (and his family) is still fine as we
> get no news.
>
> Since you knew already about the situation, a bit of compassion would not
> be a bad thing.
>
>
> > If GIMP has problems with MacOS, what are these problems?
> >
>
> Isn't *no contributor* enough of a problem by itself? The problem is that
> nobody seem to care enough to help this package happen (only enough to
> **ask** for it apparently). We have called for contributors so many times
> over the years (and again recently, so much there has even been a French
> specialized mac-news website who relayed the call a few weeks ago!).
> This contributor could be you if you want to help packaging!
> The current version of scripts are there:
> https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build
>
> There are only 3 possible outcomes:
> 1/ This contributor finally comes back and he continues *alone* 😢 to do
> all the mac packaging.
> 2/ Other people finally show they care by contributing.
> 3/ A mix of 1/ and 2/ which is the best outcome!
>
> In none of these scenarios just asking without contributing helps in any
> way.
> Thanks for either helping or understanding. 🙂
>
> Jehan
>
>
> > --
> > Maurizio Loreti  --  [hidden email]
> > _______________________________________________
> > gimp-user-list mailing list
> > List address:    [hidden email]
> > List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
> > List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
> >
>
>
> --
> ZeMarmot open animation film
> http://film.zemarmot.net
> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
> _______________________________________________
> gimp-user-list mailing list
> List address:    [hidden email]
> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: MacOS

Users mailing list
Hi Tres,

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:34 PM Tres Finocchiaro <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Jehan,
>
> I'm the macOS packager for LMMS.  I might be able to help out in his
> absence.  LMMS is written in Qt, so the dependency stack is much
> different than Gimp which is Gtk, but if there's a documented build process
> via MacPorts or Homebrew, I can take a swing at it.
>

I know there are non-official MacPorts and Homebrew because it's written on
our website. So these can be good references indeed.

Ideally we want the build scripts to be public and the build itself to also
be public (not happen on someone's computer for obvious reasons). This is
why Alex (our macOS contributor) has done a lot of work on the build
repository: https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build
It would be nice if continuing work were to happen on this same repository.

As for the build itself, it was happening on some CI service called
CircleCI (because macOS builds can be done there, unlike the GNOME Gitlab
CI machines). Builds are there:
https://circleci.com/gh/GNOME/gimp-macos-build

Note: you'll notice that there are builds for GIMP 2.10.18 there, which was
from last time Alex was working on it. We don't really know the state and
in particular if these builds done 2 months ago work well and safely, since
none of us (but Alex) even has an Apple machine so we cannot test and won't
recklessly make public completely untested DMG packages.

Last we heard from Alex, he had issues with the new "hardening" rules of
macOS. Basically it made it impossible to run a debugger (lldb), which is
what GIMP tries to do to self-debug when it crashes or encounter critical
errors (a debug feature introduced in GIMP 2.10).
I'm not sure he actually fixed it before going off-radar. If he didn't and
the solution is too complicated, a possibility is to not care about this
self-debugging feature of course. It's annoying if it doesn't work (because
it makes reporting/fixing bugs easier), but it is better to have a package
without the feature than none obviously. :-)

In any case, we will definitely welcome the help. Feel free to look at the
scripts and propose patches/merge requests. I'm not sure if an access is
needed to CircleCI project to see the build details (artifacts, logs and
whatnot). Maybe just connecting with a github account is enough. If not,
we'll try to figure this out.

Oh and last thing, if you have questions, the #gimp IRC channel on
irc.gimp.org is a good place where you can find most developers.
Thanks!

Jehan

Credentials: https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/pull/2271

>
>
> -Tres
>
> - [hidden email]
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:11 PM Jehan Pagès via gimp-user-list <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 8:16 AM Maurizio Loreti via gimp-user-list <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > Any foresight for an implementation of GIMP 2.10.18 for MacOS?  [I mean
>> > official, not MacPorts (that uses XQuartz) nor Partha's].
>> >
>>
>> Isn't it you who already asked at least twice the same thing? The answer
>> is
>> still the same as we told you several times already. Our (unique!) macOS
>> contributor has not been available for like more than a month. And to be
>> fair, I don't care as much about the macOS version of GIMP as I am worried
>> about this contributor and hoping he (and his family) is still fine as we
>> get no news.
>>
>> Since you knew already about the situation, a bit of compassion would not
>> be a bad thing.
>>
>>
>> > If GIMP has problems with MacOS, what are these problems?
>> >
>>
>> Isn't *no contributor* enough of a problem by itself? The problem is that
>> nobody seem to care enough to help this package happen (only enough to
>> **ask** for it apparently). We have called for contributors so many times
>> over the years (and again recently, so much there has even been a French
>> specialized mac-news website who relayed the call a few weeks ago!).
>> This contributor could be you if you want to help packaging!
>> The current version of scripts are there:
>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build
>>
>> There are only 3 possible outcomes:
>> 1/ This contributor finally comes back and he continues *alone* 😢 to do
>> all the mac packaging.
>> 2/ Other people finally show they care by contributing.
>> 3/ A mix of 1/ and 2/ which is the best outcome!
>>
>> In none of these scenarios just asking without contributing helps in any
>> way.
>> Thanks for either helping or understanding. 🙂
>>
>> Jehan
>>
>>
>> > --
>> > Maurizio Loreti  --  [hidden email]
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > gimp-user-list mailing list
>> > List address:    [hidden email]
>> > List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>> > List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>> _______________________________________________
>> gimp-user-list mailing list
>> List address:    [hidden email]
>> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>>
>

--
ZeMarmot open animation film
http://film.zemarmot.net
Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
_______________________________________________
gimp-user-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
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Re: MacOS

Users mailing list
>
> > he had issues with the new "hardening" rules of macOS


Although I'm very familiar with notarization and stapling
<https://stackoverflow.com/a/53528020/3196753>, the hardened runtimes
require a much deeper understanding of C++, so my efforts would likely be
futile.

I see the build system is 10.9+ (notarization requires a minimum of 10.9,
so this is good) however in my experience, the dependencies are a nightmare
when targeting older macOSs.  My strategy has been to chain a bunch of custom
steps
<https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/wiki/Dependencies-MacOS#108-custom-steps>
although
I'm curious how this is done using Gimp.  At a glance, it appears (perhaps)
the dependency listing is simpler.  I see a macos-specific gtk script, that
must be doing a lot of the work.

I spot some similarities, such as upstream bugs with otool tools
<https://github.com/jralls/gtk-mac-bundler/pull/10>, leveraging a 3rd party
dmg creator <https://github.com/andreyvit/create-dmg> (I've used app-dmg
instead) but at a glance, the build system appears to be completely
automated including signing and notarizing.

If testing the installer is the next steps before publishing, I can offer
that by fetching the URL from the CI logs.  I'm only a casual Gimp user
though, so I'd be weary of passing a build as good on instinct alone.  Do
you have a QC spreadsheet or is it more of a best-effort basis?

Alex's notes are stellar btw.

Note, I use Gimp on macOS Catalina Developer Beta so I'll know right away
if the app or a particular feature is blocked and I'm more likely to have
stricter (beta) hardening as Apple makes changes to the OS.

-Tres

- [hidden email]


On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 2:55 PM Jehan Pagès <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Tres,
>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:34 PM Tres Finocchiaro <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Jehan,
>>
>> I'm the macOS packager for LMMS.  I might be able to help out in his
>> absence.  LMMS is written in Qt, so the dependency stack is much
>> different than Gimp which is Gtk, but if there's a documented build process
>> via MacPorts or Homebrew, I can take a swing at it.
>>
>
> I know there are non-official MacPorts and Homebrew because it's written
> on our website. So these can be good references indeed.
>
> Ideally we want the build scripts to be public and the build itself to
> also be public (not happen on someone's computer for obvious reasons). This
> is why Alex (our macOS contributor) has done a lot of work on the build
> repository: https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build
> It would be nice if continuing work were to happen on this same repository.
>
> As for the build itself, it was happening on some CI service called
> CircleCI (because macOS builds can be done there, unlike the GNOME Gitlab
> CI machines). Builds are there:
> https://circleci.com/gh/GNOME/gimp-macos-build
>
> Note: you'll notice that there are builds for GIMP 2.10.18 there, which
> was from last time Alex was working on it. We don't really know the state
> and in particular if these builds done 2 months ago work well and safely,
> since none of us (but Alex) even has an Apple machine so we cannot test and
> won't recklessly make public completely untested DMG packages.
>
> Last we heard from Alex, he had issues with the new "hardening" rules of
> macOS. Basically it made it impossible to run a debugger (lldb), which is
> what GIMP tries to do to self-debug when it crashes or encounter critical
> errors (a debug feature introduced in GIMP 2.10).
> I'm not sure he actually fixed it before going off-radar. If he didn't and
> the solution is too complicated, a possibility is to not care about this
> self-debugging feature of course. It's annoying if it doesn't work (because
> it makes reporting/fixing bugs easier), but it is better to have a package
> without the feature than none obviously. :-)
>
> In any case, we will definitely welcome the help. Feel free to look at the
> scripts and propose patches/merge requests. I'm not sure if an access is
> needed to CircleCI project to see the build details (artifacts, logs and
> whatnot). Maybe just connecting with a github account is enough. If not,
> we'll try to figure this out.
>
> Oh and last thing, if you have questions, the #gimp IRC channel on
> irc.gimp.org is a good place where you can find most developers.
> Thanks!
>
> Jehan
>
> Credentials: https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/pull/2271
>>
>>
>> -Tres
>>
>> - [hidden email]
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:11 PM Jehan Pagès via gimp-user-list <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 8:16 AM Maurizio Loreti via gimp-user-list <
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Any foresight for an implementation of GIMP 2.10.18 for MacOS?  [I mean
>>> > official, not MacPorts (that uses XQuartz) nor Partha's].
>>> >
>>>
>>> Isn't it you who already asked at least twice the same thing? The answer
>>> is
>>> still the same as we told you several times already. Our (unique!) macOS
>>> contributor has not been available for like more than a month. And to be
>>> fair, I don't care as much about the macOS version of GIMP as I am
>>> worried
>>> about this contributor and hoping he (and his family) is still fine as we
>>> get no news.
>>>
>>> Since you knew already about the situation, a bit of compassion would not
>>> be a bad thing.
>>>
>>>
>>> > If GIMP has problems with MacOS, what are these problems?
>>> >
>>>
>>> Isn't *no contributor* enough of a problem by itself? The problem is that
>>> nobody seem to care enough to help this package happen (only enough to
>>> **ask** for it apparently). We have called for contributors so many times
>>> over the years (and again recently, so much there has even been a French
>>> specialized mac-news website who relayed the call a few weeks ago!).
>>> This contributor could be you if you want to help packaging!
>>> The current version of scripts are there:
>>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build
>>>
>>> There are only 3 possible outcomes:
>>> 1/ This contributor finally comes back and he continues *alone* 😢 to do
>>> all the mac packaging.
>>> 2/ Other people finally show they care by contributing.
>>> 3/ A mix of 1/ and 2/ which is the best outcome!
>>>
>>> In none of these scenarios just asking without contributing helps in any
>>> way.
>>> Thanks for either helping or understanding. 🙂
>>>
>>> Jehan
>>>
>>>
>>> > --
>>> > Maurizio Loreti  --  [hidden email]
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > gimp-user-list mailing list
>>> > List address:    [hidden email]
>>> > List membership:
>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>>> > List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gimp-user-list mailing list
>>> List address:    [hidden email]
>>> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>>>
>>
>
> --
> ZeMarmot open animation film
> http://film.zemarmot.net
> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>
_______________________________________________
gimp-user-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
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Re: MacOS

Users mailing list
Hi!

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 9:19 PM Tres Finocchiaro <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> > he had issues with the new "hardening" rules of macOS
>
>
> Although I'm very familiar with notarization and stapling
> <https://stackoverflow.com/a/53528020/3196753>, the hardened runtimes
> require a much deeper understanding of C++, so my efforts would likely be
> futile.
>

Normally our builds now are notarized, signed and whatnot (I understand
there are several security layers?) nowadays. We use the Apple ID of GNOME
(contact Neil McGovern). If needed at some point, we can put you in contact.


> I see the build system is 10.9+ (notarization requires a minimum of 10.9,
> so this is good) however in my experience, the dependencies are a nightmare
> when targeting older macOSs.  My strategy has been to chain a bunch of custom
> steps
> <https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/wiki/Dependencies-MacOS#108-custom-steps> although
> I'm curious how this is done using Gimp.  At a glance, it appears (perhaps)
> the dependency listing is simpler.  I see a macos-specific gtk script, that
> must be doing a lot of the work.
>

Yeah it's based on: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk-osx
Alex had a GIMP-specific fork:
https://gitlab.gnome.org/samm-git/gtk-osx/tree/gimp
But it's all written in the README, so you probably read it already.

As for the minimum system, initially we were targetting 10.10+ (we try to
not support OS even unsupported by their developers, i.e. here Apple. And
actually even 10.10 is not supported anymore by now, according to
Wikipedia). Cf.
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/blob/gimp-2-10/devel-docs/os-support.txt
But (if I recall) Alex was saying that supporting 10.9 was not much more
difficult so we kept as-is at least until things ended up impossible (in
which case we'd bump up the requirement).

There is also the fact that each time we drop support for an older Windows
or macOS, we get a lot of hate from people. Of course this doesn't stop us
but still. Let's say that if we have no reason to break support (i.e.
doesn't make our life harder), why do it? 🙂
This being said, if our macOS contributor(s) consider that we have to drop
support of old version X or Y of macOS for whatever good reason, we'll just
do it. The doers are basically maintainers of their own part. 😉


> I spot some similarities, such as upstream bugs with otool tools
> <https://github.com/jralls/gtk-mac-bundler/pull/10>, leveraging a 3rd
> party dmg creator <https://github.com/andreyvit/create-dmg> (I've used
> app-dmg instead) but at a glance, the build system appears to be completely
> automated including signing and notarizing.
>

I think it is, since I can see steps "Importing signing certificate", "Creating
DMG package" and "Notarizing DMG package" in the CI.


> If testing the installer is the next steps before publishing, I can offer
> that by fetching the URL from the CI logs.
>

I indeed know the DMG is made available on CircleCI and can be downloaded
in the "Artifacts" tab of builds. Maybe you'd need an account to see this,
no idea. Do you see the DMG link?


> I'm only a casual Gimp user though, so I'd be weary of passing a build as
> good on instinct alone.  Do you have a QC spreadsheet or is it more of a
> best-effort basis?
>

To be clear, we have no idea. If this is not in the repository, it means
that either Alex had not documented it (yet?) or it was just in his head.
He has been the only one working on GIMP on macOS for like the last 2 years
(and before him, we had another contributor who was also alone for many
years; it seems we never manage to get more than 1 macOS dev at a time! 😕).

I guess you could start creating a QC steps howto and contribute it to the
repo once you are done. :-)

Sorry to not be of much help, but this is just how much we know nothing
macOS-related.

Alex's notes are stellar btw.
>

Nice to read. He did put a lot of time and effort on this. We are extremely
thankful to him (and to any contributor for that matter!).

Note, I use Gimp on macOS Catalina Developer Beta so I'll know right away
> if the app or a particular feature is blocked and I'm more likely to have
> stricter (beta) hardening as Apple makes changes to the OS.
>

Cool. :-)

Jehan


> -Tres
>
> - [hidden email]
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 2:55 PM Jehan Pagès <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Tres,
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:34 PM Tres Finocchiaro <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Jehan,
>>>
>>> I'm the macOS packager for LMMS.  I might be able to help out in his
>>> absence.  LMMS is written in Qt, so the dependency stack is much
>>> different than Gimp which is Gtk, but if there's a documented build process
>>> via MacPorts or Homebrew, I can take a swing at it.
>>>
>>
>> I know there are non-official MacPorts and Homebrew because it's written
>> on our website. So these can be good references indeed.
>>
>> Ideally we want the build scripts to be public and the build itself to
>> also be public (not happen on someone's computer for obvious reasons). This
>> is why Alex (our macOS contributor) has done a lot of work on the build
>> repository: https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build
>> It would be nice if continuing work were to happen on this same
>> repository.
>>
>> As for the build itself, it was happening on some CI service called
>> CircleCI (because macOS builds can be done there, unlike the GNOME Gitlab
>> CI machines). Builds are there:
>> https://circleci.com/gh/GNOME/gimp-macos-build
>>
>> Note: you'll notice that there are builds for GIMP 2.10.18 there, which
>> was from last time Alex was working on it. We don't really know the state
>> and in particular if these builds done 2 months ago work well and safely,
>> since none of us (but Alex) even has an Apple machine so we cannot test and
>> won't recklessly make public completely untested DMG packages.
>>
>> Last we heard from Alex, he had issues with the new "hardening" rules of
>> macOS. Basically it made it impossible to run a debugger (lldb), which is
>> what GIMP tries to do to self-debug when it crashes or encounter critical
>> errors (a debug feature introduced in GIMP 2.10).
>> I'm not sure he actually fixed it before going off-radar. If he didn't
>> and the solution is too complicated, a possibility is to not care about
>> this self-debugging feature of course. It's annoying if it doesn't work
>> (because it makes reporting/fixing bugs easier), but it is better to have a
>> package without the feature than none obviously. :-)
>>
>> In any case, we will definitely welcome the help. Feel free to look at
>> the scripts and propose patches/merge requests. I'm not sure if an access
>> is needed to CircleCI project to see the build details (artifacts, logs and
>> whatnot). Maybe just connecting with a github account is enough. If not,
>> we'll try to figure this out.
>>
>> Oh and last thing, if you have questions, the #gimp IRC channel on
>> irc.gimp.org is a good place where you can find most developers.
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Jehan
>>
>> Credentials: https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/pull/2271
>>>
>>>
>>> -Tres
>>>
>>> - [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:11 PM Jehan Pagès via gimp-user-list <
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 8:16 AM Maurizio Loreti via gimp-user-list <
>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Any foresight for an implementation of GIMP 2.10.18 for MacOS?  [I
>>>> mean
>>>> > official, not MacPorts (that uses XQuartz) nor Partha's].
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Isn't it you who already asked at least twice the same thing? The
>>>> answer is
>>>> still the same as we told you several times already. Our (unique!) macOS
>>>> contributor has not been available for like more than a month. And to be
>>>> fair, I don't care as much about the macOS version of GIMP as I am
>>>> worried
>>>> about this contributor and hoping he (and his family) is still fine as
>>>> we
>>>> get no news.
>>>>
>>>> Since you knew already about the situation, a bit of compassion would
>>>> not
>>>> be a bad thing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > If GIMP has problems with MacOS, what are these problems?
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Isn't *no contributor* enough of a problem by itself? The problem is
>>>> that
>>>> nobody seem to care enough to help this package happen (only enough to
>>>> **ask** for it apparently). We have called for contributors so many
>>>> times
>>>> over the years (and again recently, so much there has even been a French
>>>> specialized mac-news website who relayed the call a few weeks ago!).
>>>> This contributor could be you if you want to help packaging!
>>>> The current version of scripts are there:
>>>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build
>>>>
>>>> There are only 3 possible outcomes:
>>>> 1/ This contributor finally comes back and he continues *alone* 😢 to do
>>>> all the mac packaging.
>>>> 2/ Other people finally show they care by contributing.
>>>> 3/ A mix of 1/ and 2/ which is the best outcome!
>>>>
>>>> In none of these scenarios just asking without contributing helps in any
>>>> way.
>>>> Thanks for either helping or understanding. 🙂
>>>>
>>>> Jehan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > --
>>>> > Maurizio Loreti  --  [hidden email]
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > gimp-user-list mailing list
>>>> > List address:    [hidden email]
>>>> > List membership:
>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>>>> > List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>>>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>>>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>>>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>>>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gimp-user-list mailing list
>>>> List address:    [hidden email]
>>>> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>>>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>
>

--
ZeMarmot open animation film
http://film.zemarmot.net
Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
_______________________________________________
gimp-user-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
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Re: MacOS

Users mailing list
Thanks for the info.  I'll comb the CI in the next week looking for the
download.  Circle-CI recently changed it's retention policy so if I need to
re-fire a build, I'll jump on IRC and introduce myself.

Note, I only use IRC as-needed since it requires an always-on connection or
cralwing service to read backlogs, but I'm not afraid to jump on.

Also, I'm a pretty big fan of Gimp.  Switched to it exclusively for raster
about 12 years ago, I'm also the one that whistleblew Sourceforge on their
BS, getting this junkware removed:
https://slashdot.org/submission/4471377/sf-says-adware-bundled-with-gimp-is-intentional

Anyway, I'll start diving into the CI this next week and post any
high-level progress here.  I realize I'm on the user's list (and that's OK)
but I'll try to be kind as to not overwhelm it with dev-related convo. :D

-Tres


- [hidden email]


On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 3:52 PM Jehan Pagès <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi!
>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 9:19 PM Tres Finocchiaro <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> > he had issues with the new "hardening" rules of macOS
>>
>>
>> Although I'm very familiar with notarization and stapling
>> <https://stackoverflow.com/a/53528020/3196753>, the hardened runtimes
>> require a much deeper understanding of C++, so my efforts would likely be
>> futile.
>>
>
> Normally our builds now are notarized, signed and whatnot (I understand
> there are several security layers?) nowadays. We use the Apple ID of GNOME
> (contact Neil McGovern). If needed at some point, we can put you in contact.
>
>
>> I see the build system is 10.9+ (notarization requires a minimum of 10.9,
>> so this is good) however in my experience, the dependencies are a nightmare
>> when targeting older macOSs.  My strategy has been to chain a bunch of custom
>> steps
>> <https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/wiki/Dependencies-MacOS#108-custom-steps> although
>> I'm curious how this is done using Gimp.  At a glance, it appears (perhaps)
>> the dependency listing is simpler.  I see a macos-specific gtk script, that
>> must be doing a lot of the work.
>>
>
> Yeah it's based on: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk-osx
> Alex had a GIMP-specific fork:
> https://gitlab.gnome.org/samm-git/gtk-osx/tree/gimp
> But it's all written in the README, so you probably read it already.
>
> As for the minimum system, initially we were targetting 10.10+ (we try to
> not support OS even unsupported by their developers, i.e. here Apple. And
> actually even 10.10 is not supported anymore by now, according to
> Wikipedia). Cf.
> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/blob/gimp-2-10/devel-docs/os-support.txt
> But (if I recall) Alex was saying that supporting 10.9 was not much more
> difficult so we kept as-is at least until things ended up impossible (in
> which case we'd bump up the requirement).
>
> There is also the fact that each time we drop support for an older Windows
> or macOS, we get a lot of hate from people. Of course this doesn't stop us
> but still. Let's say that if we have no reason to break support (i.e.
> doesn't make our life harder), why do it? 🙂
> This being said, if our macOS contributor(s) consider that we have to drop
> support of old version X or Y of macOS for whatever good reason, we'll just
> do it. The doers are basically maintainers of their own part. 😉
>
>
>> I spot some similarities, such as upstream bugs with otool tools
>> <https://github.com/jralls/gtk-mac-bundler/pull/10>, leveraging a 3rd
>> party dmg creator <https://github.com/andreyvit/create-dmg> (I've used
>> app-dmg instead) but at a glance, the build system appears to be completely
>> automated including signing and notarizing.
>>
>
> I think it is, since I can see steps "Importing signing certificate", "Creating
> DMG package" and "Notarizing DMG package" in the CI.
>
>
>> If testing the installer is the next steps before publishing, I can offer
>> that by fetching the URL from the CI logs.
>>
>
> I indeed know the DMG is made available on CircleCI and can be downloaded
> in the "Artifacts" tab of builds. Maybe you'd need an account to see this,
> no idea. Do you see the DMG link?
>
>
>> I'm only a casual Gimp user though, so I'd be weary of passing a build as
>> good on instinct alone.  Do you have a QC spreadsheet or is it more of a
>> best-effort basis?
>>
>
> To be clear, we have no idea. If this is not in the repository, it means
> that either Alex had not documented it (yet?) or it was just in his head.
> He has been the only one working on GIMP on macOS for like the last 2 years
> (and before him, we had another contributor who was also alone for many
> years; it seems we never manage to get more than 1 macOS dev at a time! 😕).
>
> I guess you could start creating a QC steps howto and contribute it to the
> repo once you are done. :-)
>
> Sorry to not be of much help, but this is just how much we know nothing
> macOS-related.
>
> Alex's notes are stellar btw.
>>
>
> Nice to read. He did put a lot of time and effort on this. We are
> extremely thankful to him (and to any contributor for that matter!).
>
> Note, I use Gimp on macOS Catalina Developer Beta so I'll know right away
>> if the app or a particular feature is blocked and I'm more likely to have
>> stricter (beta) hardening as Apple makes changes to the OS.
>>
>
> Cool. :-)
>
> Jehan
>
>
>> -Tres
>>
>> - [hidden email]
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 2:55 PM Jehan Pagès <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Tres,
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:34 PM Tres Finocchiaro <
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jehan,
>>>>
>>>> I'm the macOS packager for LMMS.  I might be able to help out in his
>>>> absence.  LMMS is written in Qt, so the dependency stack is much
>>>> different than Gimp which is Gtk, but if there's a documented build process
>>>> via MacPorts or Homebrew, I can take a swing at it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I know there are non-official MacPorts and Homebrew because it's written
>>> on our website. So these can be good references indeed.
>>>
>>> Ideally we want the build scripts to be public and the build itself to
>>> also be public (not happen on someone's computer for obvious reasons). This
>>> is why Alex (our macOS contributor) has done a lot of work on the build
>>> repository: https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build
>>> It would be nice if continuing work were to happen on this same
>>> repository.
>>>
>>> As for the build itself, it was happening on some CI service called
>>> CircleCI (because macOS builds can be done there, unlike the GNOME Gitlab
>>> CI machines). Builds are there:
>>> https://circleci.com/gh/GNOME/gimp-macos-build
>>>
>>> Note: you'll notice that there are builds for GIMP 2.10.18 there, which
>>> was from last time Alex was working on it. We don't really know the state
>>> and in particular if these builds done 2 months ago work well and safely,
>>> since none of us (but Alex) even has an Apple machine so we cannot test and
>>> won't recklessly make public completely untested DMG packages.
>>>
>>> Last we heard from Alex, he had issues with the new "hardening" rules of
>>> macOS. Basically it made it impossible to run a debugger (lldb), which is
>>> what GIMP tries to do to self-debug when it crashes or encounter critical
>>> errors (a debug feature introduced in GIMP 2.10).
>>> I'm not sure he actually fixed it before going off-radar. If he didn't
>>> and the solution is too complicated, a possibility is to not care about
>>> this self-debugging feature of course. It's annoying if it doesn't work
>>> (because it makes reporting/fixing bugs easier), but it is better to have a
>>> package without the feature than none obviously. :-)
>>>
>>> In any case, we will definitely welcome the help. Feel free to look at
>>> the scripts and propose patches/merge requests. I'm not sure if an access
>>> is needed to CircleCI project to see the build details (artifacts, logs and
>>> whatnot). Maybe just connecting with a github account is enough. If not,
>>> we'll try to figure this out.
>>>
>>> Oh and last thing, if you have questions, the #gimp IRC channel on
>>> irc.gimp.org is a good place where you can find most developers.
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Jehan
>>>
>>> Credentials: https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/pull/2271
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Tres
>>>>
>>>> - [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:11 PM Jehan Pagès via gimp-user-list <
>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 8:16 AM Maurizio Loreti via gimp-user-list <
>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Any foresight for an implementation of GIMP 2.10.18 for MacOS?  [I
>>>>> mean
>>>>> > official, not MacPorts (that uses XQuartz) nor Partha's].
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> Isn't it you who already asked at least twice the same thing? The
>>>>> answer is
>>>>> still the same as we told you several times already. Our (unique!)
>>>>> macOS
>>>>> contributor has not been available for like more than a month. And to
>>>>> be
>>>>> fair, I don't care as much about the macOS version of GIMP as I am
>>>>> worried
>>>>> about this contributor and hoping he (and his family) is still fine as
>>>>> we
>>>>> get no news.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since you knew already about the situation, a bit of compassion would
>>>>> not
>>>>> be a bad thing.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > If GIMP has problems with MacOS, what are these problems?
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> Isn't *no contributor* enough of a problem by itself? The problem is
>>>>> that
>>>>> nobody seem to care enough to help this package happen (only enough to
>>>>> **ask** for it apparently). We have called for contributors so many
>>>>> times
>>>>> over the years (and again recently, so much there has even been a
>>>>> French
>>>>> specialized mac-news website who relayed the call a few weeks ago!).
>>>>> This contributor could be you if you want to help packaging!
>>>>> The current version of scripts are there:
>>>>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build
>>>>>
>>>>> There are only 3 possible outcomes:
>>>>> 1/ This contributor finally comes back and he continues *alone* 😢 to
>>>>> do
>>>>> all the mac packaging.
>>>>> 2/ Other people finally show they care by contributing.
>>>>> 3/ A mix of 1/ and 2/ which is the best outcome!
>>>>>
>>>>> In none of these scenarios just asking without contributing helps in
>>>>> any
>>>>> way.
>>>>> Thanks for either helping or understanding. 🙂
>>>>>
>>>>> Jehan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > Maurizio Loreti  --  [hidden email]
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > gimp-user-list mailing list
>>>>> > List address:    [hidden email]
>>>>> > List membership:
>>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>>>>> > List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>>>>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>>>>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>>>>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>>>>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> gimp-user-list mailing list
>>>>> List address:    [hidden email]
>>>>> List membership:
>>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>>>>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>>
>>
>
> --
> ZeMarmot open animation film
> http://film.zemarmot.net
> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>
_______________________________________________
gimp-user-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
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Re: MacOS

Users mailing list
Wrong article, that was my submission, here's the publshed version
https://tech.slashdot.org/story/15/06/01/1241231/sourceforge-and-gimp-updated,
provided for accuracy purposes only. :D


- [hidden email]


On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 4:08 PM Tres Finocchiaro <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Thanks for the info.  I'll comb the CI in the next week looking for the
> download.  Circle-CI recently changed it's retention policy so if I need to
> re-fire a build, I'll jump on IRC and introduce myself.
>
> Note, I only use IRC as-needed since it requires an always-on connection
> or cralwing service to read backlogs, but I'm not afraid to jump on.
>
> Also, I'm a pretty big fan of Gimp.  Switched to it exclusively for raster
> about 12 years ago, I'm also the one that whistleblew Sourceforge on their
> BS, getting this junkware removed:
> https://slashdot.org/submission/4471377/sf-says-adware-bundled-with-gimp-is-intentional
>
> Anyway, I'll start diving into the CI this next week and post any
> high-level progress here.  I realize I'm on the user's list (and that's OK)
> but I'll try to be kind as to not overwhelm it with dev-related convo. :D
>
> -Tres
>
>
> - [hidden email]
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 3:52 PM Jehan Pagès <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 9:19 PM Tres Finocchiaro <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> > he had issues with the new "hardening" rules of macOS
>>>
>>>
>>> Although I'm very familiar with notarization and stapling
>>> <https://stackoverflow.com/a/53528020/3196753>, the hardened runtimes
>>> require a much deeper understanding of C++, so my efforts would likely be
>>> futile.
>>>
>>
>> Normally our builds now are notarized, signed and whatnot (I understand
>> there are several security layers?) nowadays. We use the Apple ID of GNOME
>> (contact Neil McGovern). If needed at some point, we can put you in contact.
>>
>>
>>> I see the build system is 10.9+ (notarization requires a minimum of
>>> 10.9, so this is good) however in my experience, the dependencies are a
>>> nightmare when targeting older macOSs.  My strategy has been to chain a
>>> bunch of custom steps
>>> <https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/wiki/Dependencies-MacOS#108-custom-steps> although
>>> I'm curious how this is done using Gimp.  At a glance, it appears (perhaps)
>>> the dependency listing is simpler.  I see a macos-specific gtk script, that
>>> must be doing a lot of the work.
>>>
>>
>> Yeah it's based on: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk-osx
>> Alex had a GIMP-specific fork:
>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/samm-git/gtk-osx/tree/gimp
>> But it's all written in the README, so you probably read it already.
>>
>> As for the minimum system, initially we were targetting 10.10+ (we try to
>> not support OS even unsupported by their developers, i.e. here Apple. And
>> actually even 10.10 is not supported anymore by now, according to
>> Wikipedia). Cf.
>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/blob/gimp-2-10/devel-docs/os-support.txt
>> But (if I recall) Alex was saying that supporting 10.9 was not much more
>> difficult so we kept as-is at least until things ended up impossible (in
>> which case we'd bump up the requirement).
>>
>> There is also the fact that each time we drop support for an older
>> Windows or macOS, we get a lot of hate from people. Of course this doesn't
>> stop us but still. Let's say that if we have no reason to break support
>> (i.e. doesn't make our life harder), why do it? 🙂
>> This being said, if our macOS contributor(s) consider that we have to
>> drop support of old version X or Y of macOS for whatever good reason, we'll
>> just do it. The doers are basically maintainers of their own part. 😉
>>
>>
>>> I spot some similarities, such as upstream bugs with otool tools
>>> <https://github.com/jralls/gtk-mac-bundler/pull/10>, leveraging a 3rd
>>> party dmg creator <https://github.com/andreyvit/create-dmg> (I've used
>>> app-dmg instead) but at a glance, the build system appears to be completely
>>> automated including signing and notarizing.
>>>
>>
>> I think it is, since I can see steps "Importing signing certificate", "Creating
>> DMG package" and "Notarizing DMG package" in the CI.
>>
>>
>>> If testing the installer is the next steps before publishing, I can
>>> offer that by fetching the URL from the CI logs.
>>>
>>
>> I indeed know the DMG is made available on CircleCI and can be downloaded
>> in the "Artifacts" tab of builds. Maybe you'd need an account to see this,
>> no idea. Do you see the DMG link?
>>
>>
>>> I'm only a casual Gimp user though, so I'd be weary of passing a build
>>> as good on instinct alone.  Do you have a QC spreadsheet or is it more of a
>>> best-effort basis?
>>>
>>
>> To be clear, we have no idea. If this is not in the repository, it means
>> that either Alex had not documented it (yet?) or it was just in his head.
>> He has been the only one working on GIMP on macOS for like the last 2 years
>> (and before him, we had another contributor who was also alone for many
>> years; it seems we never manage to get more than 1 macOS dev at a time! 😕).
>>
>> I guess you could start creating a QC steps howto and contribute it to
>> the repo once you are done. :-)
>>
>> Sorry to not be of much help, but this is just how much we know nothing
>> macOS-related.
>>
>> Alex's notes are stellar btw.
>>>
>>
>> Nice to read. He did put a lot of time and effort on this. We are
>> extremely thankful to him (and to any contributor for that matter!).
>>
>> Note, I use Gimp on macOS Catalina Developer Beta so I'll know right away
>>> if the app or a particular feature is blocked and I'm more likely to have
>>> stricter (beta) hardening as Apple makes changes to the OS.
>>>
>>
>> Cool. :-)
>>
>> Jehan
>>
>>
>>> -Tres
>>>
>>> - [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 2:55 PM Jehan Pagès <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Tres,
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:34 PM Tres Finocchiaro <
>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jehan,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm the macOS packager for LMMS.  I might be able to help out in his
>>>>> absence.  LMMS is written in Qt, so the dependency stack is much
>>>>> different than Gimp which is Gtk, but if there's a documented build process
>>>>> via MacPorts or Homebrew, I can take a swing at it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know there are non-official MacPorts and Homebrew because it's
>>>> written on our website. So these can be good references indeed.
>>>>
>>>> Ideally we want the build scripts to be public and the build itself to
>>>> also be public (not happen on someone's computer for obvious reasons). This
>>>> is why Alex (our macOS contributor) has done a lot of work on the build
>>>> repository: https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build
>>>> It would be nice if continuing work were to happen on this same
>>>> repository.
>>>>
>>>> As for the build itself, it was happening on some CI service called
>>>> CircleCI (because macOS builds can be done there, unlike the GNOME Gitlab
>>>> CI machines). Builds are there:
>>>> https://circleci.com/gh/GNOME/gimp-macos-build
>>>>
>>>> Note: you'll notice that there are builds for GIMP 2.10.18 there, which
>>>> was from last time Alex was working on it. We don't really know the state
>>>> and in particular if these builds done 2 months ago work well and safely,
>>>> since none of us (but Alex) even has an Apple machine so we cannot test and
>>>> won't recklessly make public completely untested DMG packages.
>>>>
>>>> Last we heard from Alex, he had issues with the new "hardening" rules
>>>> of macOS. Basically it made it impossible to run a debugger (lldb), which
>>>> is what GIMP tries to do to self-debug when it crashes or encounter
>>>> critical errors (a debug feature introduced in GIMP 2.10).
>>>> I'm not sure he actually fixed it before going off-radar. If he didn't
>>>> and the solution is too complicated, a possibility is to not care about
>>>> this self-debugging feature of course. It's annoying if it doesn't work
>>>> (because it makes reporting/fixing bugs easier), but it is better to have a
>>>> package without the feature than none obviously. :-)
>>>>
>>>> In any case, we will definitely welcome the help. Feel free to look at
>>>> the scripts and propose patches/merge requests. I'm not sure if an access
>>>> is needed to CircleCI project to see the build details (artifacts, logs and
>>>> whatnot). Maybe just connecting with a github account is enough. If not,
>>>> we'll try to figure this out.
>>>>
>>>> Oh and last thing, if you have questions, the #gimp IRC channel on
>>>> irc.gimp.org is a good place where you can find most developers.
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Jehan
>>>>
>>>> Credentials: https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/pull/2271
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -Tres
>>>>>
>>>>> - [hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:11 PM Jehan Pagès via gimp-user-list <
>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 8:16 AM Maurizio Loreti via gimp-user-list <
>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Any foresight for an implementation of GIMP 2.10.18 for MacOS?  [I
>>>>>> mean
>>>>>> > official, not MacPorts (that uses XQuartz) nor Partha's].
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Isn't it you who already asked at least twice the same thing? The
>>>>>> answer is
>>>>>> still the same as we told you several times already. Our (unique!)
>>>>>> macOS
>>>>>> contributor has not been available for like more than a month. And to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> fair, I don't care as much about the macOS version of GIMP as I am
>>>>>> worried
>>>>>> about this contributor and hoping he (and his family) is still fine
>>>>>> as we
>>>>>> get no news.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since you knew already about the situation, a bit of compassion would
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> be a bad thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > If GIMP has problems with MacOS, what are these problems?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Isn't *no contributor* enough of a problem by itself? The problem is
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> nobody seem to care enough to help this package happen (only enough to
>>>>>> **ask** for it apparently). We have called for contributors so many
>>>>>> times
>>>>>> over the years (and again recently, so much there has even been a
>>>>>> French
>>>>>> specialized mac-news website who relayed the call a few weeks ago!).
>>>>>> This contributor could be you if you want to help packaging!
>>>>>> The current version of scripts are there:
>>>>>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are only 3 possible outcomes:
>>>>>> 1/ This contributor finally comes back and he continues *alone* 😢 to
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> all the mac packaging.
>>>>>> 2/ Other people finally show they care by contributing.
>>>>>> 3/ A mix of 1/ and 2/ which is the best outcome!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In none of these scenarios just asking without contributing helps in
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> way.
>>>>>> Thanks for either helping or understanding. 🙂
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jehan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > --
>>>>>> > Maurizio Loreti  --  [hidden email]
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > gimp-user-list mailing list
>>>>>> > List address:    [hidden email]
>>>>>> > List membership:
>>>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>>>>>> > List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>>>>>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>>>>>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>>>>>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>>>>>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> gimp-user-list mailing list
>>>>>> List address:    [hidden email]
>>>>>> List membership:
>>>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>>>>>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>>>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>>>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>>>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>>>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>
>
_______________________________________________
gimp-user-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
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Re: MacOS

Users mailing list
In reply to this post by Users mailing list
Hi,

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:09 PM Tres Finocchiaro <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks for the info.  I'll comb the CI in the next week looking for the
> download.  Circle-CI recently changed it's retention policy so if I need to
> re-fire a build, I'll jump on IRC and introduce myself.
>
> Note, I only use IRC as-needed since it requires an always-on connection
> or cralwing service to read backlogs, but I'm not afraid to jump on.
>
> Also, I'm a pretty big fan of Gimp.  Switched to it exclusively for raster
> about 12 years ago, I'm also the one that whistleblew Sourceforge on their
> BS, getting this junkware removed:
> https://slashdot.org/submission/4471377/sf-says-adware-bundled-with-gimp-is-intentional
>
> Anyway, I'll start diving into the CI this next week and post any
> high-level progress here.  I realize I'm on the user's list (and that's OK)
> but I'll try to be kind as to not overwhelm it with dev-related convo. :D
>

Didn't realize this was the user list. Maybe we can continue the discussion
in the developer list instead (to subscribe, if not already:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list) and/or IRC of
course.

Jehan


> -Tres
>
>
> - [hidden email]
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 3:52 PM Jehan Pagès <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 9:19 PM Tres Finocchiaro <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> > he had issues with the new "hardening" rules of macOS
>>>
>>>
>>> Although I'm very familiar with notarization and stapling
>>> <https://stackoverflow.com/a/53528020/3196753>, the hardened runtimes
>>> require a much deeper understanding of C++, so my efforts would likely be
>>> futile.
>>>
>>
>> Normally our builds now are notarized, signed and whatnot (I understand
>> there are several security layers?) nowadays. We use the Apple ID of GNOME
>> (contact Neil McGovern). If needed at some point, we can put you in contact.
>>
>>
>>> I see the build system is 10.9+ (notarization requires a minimum of
>>> 10.9, so this is good) however in my experience, the dependencies are a
>>> nightmare when targeting older macOSs.  My strategy has been to chain a
>>> bunch of custom steps
>>> <https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/wiki/Dependencies-MacOS#108-custom-steps> although
>>> I'm curious how this is done using Gimp.  At a glance, it appears (perhaps)
>>> the dependency listing is simpler.  I see a macos-specific gtk script, that
>>> must be doing a lot of the work.
>>>
>>
>> Yeah it's based on: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk-osx
>> Alex had a GIMP-specific fork:
>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/samm-git/gtk-osx/tree/gimp
>> But it's all written in the README, so you probably read it already.
>>
>> As for the minimum system, initially we were targetting 10.10+ (we try to
>> not support OS even unsupported by their developers, i.e. here Apple. And
>> actually even 10.10 is not supported anymore by now, according to
>> Wikipedia). Cf.
>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/blob/gimp-2-10/devel-docs/os-support.txt
>> But (if I recall) Alex was saying that supporting 10.9 was not much more
>> difficult so we kept as-is at least until things ended up impossible (in
>> which case we'd bump up the requirement).
>>
>> There is also the fact that each time we drop support for an older
>> Windows or macOS, we get a lot of hate from people. Of course this doesn't
>> stop us but still. Let's say that if we have no reason to break support
>> (i.e. doesn't make our life harder), why do it? 🙂
>> This being said, if our macOS contributor(s) consider that we have to
>> drop support of old version X or Y of macOS for whatever good reason, we'll
>> just do it. The doers are basically maintainers of their own part. 😉
>>
>>
>>> I spot some similarities, such as upstream bugs with otool tools
>>> <https://github.com/jralls/gtk-mac-bundler/pull/10>, leveraging a 3rd
>>> party dmg creator <https://github.com/andreyvit/create-dmg> (I've used
>>> app-dmg instead) but at a glance, the build system appears to be completely
>>> automated including signing and notarizing.
>>>
>>
>> I think it is, since I can see steps "Importing signing certificate", "Creating
>> DMG package" and "Notarizing DMG package" in the CI.
>>
>>
>>> If testing the installer is the next steps before publishing, I can
>>> offer that by fetching the URL from the CI logs.
>>>
>>
>> I indeed know the DMG is made available on CircleCI and can be downloaded
>> in the "Artifacts" tab of builds. Maybe you'd need an account to see this,
>> no idea. Do you see the DMG link?
>>
>>
>>> I'm only a casual Gimp user though, so I'd be weary of passing a build
>>> as good on instinct alone.  Do you have a QC spreadsheet or is it more of a
>>> best-effort basis?
>>>
>>
>> To be clear, we have no idea. If this is not in the repository, it means
>> that either Alex had not documented it (yet?) or it was just in his head.
>> He has been the only one working on GIMP on macOS for like the last 2 years
>> (and before him, we had another contributor who was also alone for many
>> years; it seems we never manage to get more than 1 macOS dev at a time! 😕).
>>
>> I guess you could start creating a QC steps howto and contribute it to
>> the repo once you are done. :-)
>>
>> Sorry to not be of much help, but this is just how much we know nothing
>> macOS-related.
>>
>> Alex's notes are stellar btw.
>>>
>>
>> Nice to read. He did put a lot of time and effort on this. We are
>> extremely thankful to him (and to any contributor for that matter!).
>>
>> Note, I use Gimp on macOS Catalina Developer Beta so I'll know right away
>>> if the app or a particular feature is blocked and I'm more likely to have
>>> stricter (beta) hardening as Apple makes changes to the OS.
>>>
>>
>> Cool. :-)
>>
>> Jehan
>>
>>
>>> -Tres
>>>
>>> - [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 2:55 PM Jehan Pagès <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Tres,
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:34 PM Tres Finocchiaro <
>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jehan,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm the macOS packager for LMMS.  I might be able to help out in his
>>>>> absence.  LMMS is written in Qt, so the dependency stack is much
>>>>> different than Gimp which is Gtk, but if there's a documented build process
>>>>> via MacPorts or Homebrew, I can take a swing at it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know there are non-official MacPorts and Homebrew because it's
>>>> written on our website. So these can be good references indeed.
>>>>
>>>> Ideally we want the build scripts to be public and the build itself to
>>>> also be public (not happen on someone's computer for obvious reasons). This
>>>> is why Alex (our macOS contributor) has done a lot of work on the build
>>>> repository: https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build
>>>> It would be nice if continuing work were to happen on this same
>>>> repository.
>>>>
>>>> As for the build itself, it was happening on some CI service called
>>>> CircleCI (because macOS builds can be done there, unlike the GNOME Gitlab
>>>> CI machines). Builds are there:
>>>> https://circleci.com/gh/GNOME/gimp-macos-build
>>>>
>>>> Note: you'll notice that there are builds for GIMP 2.10.18 there, which
>>>> was from last time Alex was working on it. We don't really know the state
>>>> and in particular if these builds done 2 months ago work well and safely,
>>>> since none of us (but Alex) even has an Apple machine so we cannot test and
>>>> won't recklessly make public completely untested DMG packages.
>>>>
>>>> Last we heard from Alex, he had issues with the new "hardening" rules
>>>> of macOS. Basically it made it impossible to run a debugger (lldb), which
>>>> is what GIMP tries to do to self-debug when it crashes or encounter
>>>> critical errors (a debug feature introduced in GIMP 2.10).
>>>> I'm not sure he actually fixed it before going off-radar. If he didn't
>>>> and the solution is too complicated, a possibility is to not care about
>>>> this self-debugging feature of course. It's annoying if it doesn't work
>>>> (because it makes reporting/fixing bugs easier), but it is better to have a
>>>> package without the feature than none obviously. :-)
>>>>
>>>> In any case, we will definitely welcome the help. Feel free to look at
>>>> the scripts and propose patches/merge requests. I'm not sure if an access
>>>> is needed to CircleCI project to see the build details (artifacts, logs and
>>>> whatnot). Maybe just connecting with a github account is enough. If not,
>>>> we'll try to figure this out.
>>>>
>>>> Oh and last thing, if you have questions, the #gimp IRC channel on
>>>> irc.gimp.org is a good place where you can find most developers.
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Jehan
>>>>
>>>> Credentials: https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/pull/2271
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -Tres
>>>>>
>>>>> - [hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:11 PM Jehan Pagès via gimp-user-list <
>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 8:16 AM Maurizio Loreti via gimp-user-list <
>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Any foresight for an implementation of GIMP 2.10.18 for MacOS?  [I
>>>>>> mean
>>>>>> > official, not MacPorts (that uses XQuartz) nor Partha's].
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Isn't it you who already asked at least twice the same thing? The
>>>>>> answer is
>>>>>> still the same as we told you several times already. Our (unique!)
>>>>>> macOS
>>>>>> contributor has not been available for like more than a month. And to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> fair, I don't care as much about the macOS version of GIMP as I am
>>>>>> worried
>>>>>> about this contributor and hoping he (and his family) is still fine
>>>>>> as we
>>>>>> get no news.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since you knew already about the situation, a bit of compassion would
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> be a bad thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > If GIMP has problems with MacOS, what are these problems?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Isn't *no contributor* enough of a problem by itself? The problem is
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> nobody seem to care enough to help this package happen (only enough to
>>>>>> **ask** for it apparently). We have called for contributors so many
>>>>>> times
>>>>>> over the years (and again recently, so much there has even been a
>>>>>> French
>>>>>> specialized mac-news website who relayed the call a few weeks ago!).
>>>>>> This contributor could be you if you want to help packaging!
>>>>>> The current version of scripts are there:
>>>>>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are only 3 possible outcomes:
>>>>>> 1/ This contributor finally comes back and he continues *alone* 😢 to
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> all the mac packaging.
>>>>>> 2/ Other people finally show they care by contributing.
>>>>>> 3/ A mix of 1/ and 2/ which is the best outcome!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In none of these scenarios just asking without contributing helps in
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> way.
>>>>>> Thanks for either helping or understanding. 🙂
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jehan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > --
>>>>>> > Maurizio Loreti  --  [hidden email]
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > gimp-user-list mailing list
>>>>>> > List address:    [hidden email]
>>>>>> > List membership:
>>>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>>>>>> > List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>>>>>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>>>>>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>>>>>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>>>>>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> gimp-user-list mailing list
>>>>>> List address:    [hidden email]
>>>>>> List membership:
>>>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>>>>>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>>>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>>>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>>>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>>>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>
>

--
ZeMarmot open animation film
http://film.zemarmot.net
Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
_______________________________________________
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List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
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Re: MacOS

Users mailing list
I see some new patches arriving which suggests there's some new activity on
the Mac port (SDK 10.9 -> 10.10), etc.  I'll jump on the developer list as
suggested although from what I'm seeing there's -- what appears to be --
progress so it'll be more for the purposes of familiarizing with the
build system in the event my assistance is needed.

- [hidden email]


On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 3:14 PM Jehan Pagès <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:09 PM Tres Finocchiaro <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the info.  I'll comb the CI in the next week looking for the
>> download.  Circle-CI recently changed it's retention policy so if I need to
>> re-fire a build, I'll jump on IRC and introduce myself.
>>
>> Note, I only use IRC as-needed since it requires an always-on connection
>> or cralwing service to read backlogs, but I'm not afraid to jump on.
>>
>> Also, I'm a pretty big fan of Gimp.  Switched to it exclusively for
>> raster about 12 years ago, I'm also the one that whistleblew Sourceforge on
>> their BS, getting this junkware removed:
>> https://slashdot.org/submission/4471377/sf-says-adware-bundled-with-gimp-is-intentional
>>
>> Anyway, I'll start diving into the CI this next week and post any
>> high-level progress here.  I realize I'm on the user's list (and that's OK)
>> but I'll try to be kind as to not overwhelm it with dev-related convo. :D
>>
>
> Didn't realize this was the user list. Maybe we can continue the
> discussion in the developer list instead (to subscribe, if not already:
> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list) and/or IRC
> of course.
>
> Jehan
>
>
>> -Tres
>>
>>
>> - [hidden email]
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 3:52 PM Jehan Pagès <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 9:19 PM Tres Finocchiaro <
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> > he had issues with the new "hardening" rules of macOS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Although I'm very familiar with notarization and stapling
>>>> <https://stackoverflow.com/a/53528020/3196753>, the hardened runtimes
>>>> require a much deeper understanding of C++, so my efforts would likely be
>>>> futile.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Normally our builds now are notarized, signed and whatnot (I understand
>>> there are several security layers?) nowadays. We use the Apple ID of GNOME
>>> (contact Neil McGovern). If needed at some point, we can put you in contact.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I see the build system is 10.9+ (notarization requires a minimum of
>>>> 10.9, so this is good) however in my experience, the dependencies are a
>>>> nightmare when targeting older macOSs.  My strategy has been to chain a
>>>> bunch of custom steps
>>>> <https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/wiki/Dependencies-MacOS#108-custom-steps> although
>>>> I'm curious how this is done using Gimp.  At a glance, it appears (perhaps)
>>>> the dependency listing is simpler.  I see a macos-specific gtk script, that
>>>> must be doing a lot of the work.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah it's based on: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk-osx
>>> Alex had a GIMP-specific fork:
>>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/samm-git/gtk-osx/tree/gimp
>>> But it's all written in the README, so you probably read it already.
>>>
>>> As for the minimum system, initially we were targetting 10.10+ (we try
>>> to not support OS even unsupported by their developers, i.e. here Apple.
>>> And actually even 10.10 is not supported anymore by now, according to
>>> Wikipedia). Cf.
>>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/blob/gimp-2-10/devel-docs/os-support.txt
>>> But (if I recall) Alex was saying that supporting 10.9 was not much more
>>> difficult so we kept as-is at least until things ended up impossible (in
>>> which case we'd bump up the requirement).
>>>
>>> There is also the fact that each time we drop support for an older
>>> Windows or macOS, we get a lot of hate from people. Of course this doesn't
>>> stop us but still. Let's say that if we have no reason to break support
>>> (i.e. doesn't make our life harder), why do it? 🙂
>>> This being said, if our macOS contributor(s) consider that we have to
>>> drop support of old version X or Y of macOS for whatever good reason, we'll
>>> just do it. The doers are basically maintainers of their own part. 😉
>>>
>>>
>>>> I spot some similarities, such as upstream bugs with otool tools
>>>> <https://github.com/jralls/gtk-mac-bundler/pull/10>, leveraging a 3rd
>>>> party dmg creator <https://github.com/andreyvit/create-dmg> (I've used
>>>> app-dmg instead) but at a glance, the build system appears to be completely
>>>> automated including signing and notarizing.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think it is, since I can see steps "Importing signing certificate", "Creating
>>> DMG package" and "Notarizing DMG package" in the CI.
>>>
>>>
>>>> If testing the installer is the next steps before publishing, I can
>>>> offer that by fetching the URL from the CI logs.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I indeed know the DMG is made available on CircleCI and can be
>>> downloaded in the "Artifacts" tab of builds. Maybe you'd need an account to
>>> see this, no idea. Do you see the DMG link?
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm only a casual Gimp user though, so I'd be weary of passing a build
>>>> as good on instinct alone.  Do you have a QC spreadsheet or is it more of a
>>>> best-effort basis?
>>>>
>>>
>>> To be clear, we have no idea. If this is not in the repository, it means
>>> that either Alex had not documented it (yet?) or it was just in his head.
>>> He has been the only one working on GIMP on macOS for like the last 2 years
>>> (and before him, we had another contributor who was also alone for many
>>> years; it seems we never manage to get more than 1 macOS dev at a time! 😕).
>>>
>>> I guess you could start creating a QC steps howto and contribute it to
>>> the repo once you are done. :-)
>>>
>>> Sorry to not be of much help, but this is just how much we know nothing
>>> macOS-related.
>>>
>>> Alex's notes are stellar btw.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nice to read. He did put a lot of time and effort on this. We are
>>> extremely thankful to him (and to any contributor for that matter!).
>>>
>>> Note, I use Gimp on macOS Catalina Developer Beta so I'll know right
>>>> away if the app or a particular feature is blocked and I'm more likely to
>>>> have stricter (beta) hardening as Apple makes changes to the OS.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Cool. :-)
>>>
>>> Jehan
>>>
>>>
>>>> -Tres
>>>>
>>>> - [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 2:55 PM Jehan Pagès <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Tres,
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:34 PM Tres Finocchiaro <
>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Jehan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm the macOS packager for LMMS.  I might be able to help out in his
>>>>>> absence.  LMMS is written in Qt, so the dependency stack is much
>>>>>> different than Gimp which is Gtk, but if there's a documented build process
>>>>>> via MacPorts or Homebrew, I can take a swing at it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I know there are non-official MacPorts and Homebrew because it's
>>>>> written on our website. So these can be good references indeed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ideally we want the build scripts to be public and the build itself to
>>>>> also be public (not happen on someone's computer for obvious reasons). This
>>>>> is why Alex (our macOS contributor) has done a lot of work on the build
>>>>> repository: https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build
>>>>> It would be nice if continuing work were to happen on this same
>>>>> repository.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the build itself, it was happening on some CI service called
>>>>> CircleCI (because macOS builds can be done there, unlike the GNOME Gitlab
>>>>> CI machines). Builds are there:
>>>>> https://circleci.com/gh/GNOME/gimp-macos-build
>>>>>
>>>>> Note: you'll notice that there are builds for GIMP 2.10.18 there,
>>>>> which was from last time Alex was working on it. We don't really know the
>>>>> state and in particular if these builds done 2 months ago work well and
>>>>> safely, since none of us (but Alex) even has an Apple machine so we cannot
>>>>> test and won't recklessly make public completely untested DMG packages.
>>>>>
>>>>> Last we heard from Alex, he had issues with the new "hardening" rules
>>>>> of macOS. Basically it made it impossible to run a debugger (lldb), which
>>>>> is what GIMP tries to do to self-debug when it crashes or encounter
>>>>> critical errors (a debug feature introduced in GIMP 2.10).
>>>>> I'm not sure he actually fixed it before going off-radar. If he didn't
>>>>> and the solution is too complicated, a possibility is to not care about
>>>>> this self-debugging feature of course. It's annoying if it doesn't work
>>>>> (because it makes reporting/fixing bugs easier), but it is better to have a
>>>>> package without the feature than none obviously. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> In any case, we will definitely welcome the help. Feel free to look at
>>>>> the scripts and propose patches/merge requests. I'm not sure if an access
>>>>> is needed to CircleCI project to see the build details (artifacts, logs and
>>>>> whatnot). Maybe just connecting with a github account is enough. If not,
>>>>> we'll try to figure this out.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh and last thing, if you have questions, the #gimp IRC channel on
>>>>> irc.gimp.org is a good place where you can find most developers.
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>> Jehan
>>>>>
>>>>> Credentials: https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/pull/2271
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Tres
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - [hidden email]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:11 PM Jehan Pagès via gimp-user-list <
>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 8:16 AM Maurizio Loreti via gimp-user-list <
>>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > Any foresight for an implementation of GIMP 2.10.18 for MacOS?  [I
>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>> > official, not MacPorts (that uses XQuartz) nor Partha's].
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Isn't it you who already asked at least twice the same thing? The
>>>>>>> answer is
>>>>>>> still the same as we told you several times already. Our (unique!)
>>>>>>> macOS
>>>>>>> contributor has not been available for like more than a month. And
>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>> fair, I don't care as much about the macOS version of GIMP as I am
>>>>>>> worried
>>>>>>> about this contributor and hoping he (and his family) is still fine
>>>>>>> as we
>>>>>>> get no news.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since you knew already about the situation, a bit of compassion
>>>>>>> would not
>>>>>>> be a bad thing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > If GIMP has problems with MacOS, what are these problems?
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Isn't *no contributor* enough of a problem by itself? The problem is
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> nobody seem to care enough to help this package happen (only enough
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> **ask** for it apparently). We have called for contributors so many
>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>> over the years (and again recently, so much there has even been a
>>>>>>> French
>>>>>>> specialized mac-news website who relayed the call a few weeks ago!).
>>>>>>> This contributor could be you if you want to help packaging!
>>>>>>> The current version of scripts are there:
>>>>>>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are only 3 possible outcomes:
>>>>>>> 1/ This contributor finally comes back and he continues *alone* 😢
>>>>>>> to do
>>>>>>> all the mac packaging.
>>>>>>> 2/ Other people finally show they care by contributing.
>>>>>>> 3/ A mix of 1/ and 2/ which is the best outcome!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In none of these scenarios just asking without contributing helps in
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>> Thanks for either helping or understanding. 🙂
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jehan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>> > Maurizio Loreti  --  [hidden email]
>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > gimp-user-list mailing list
>>>>>>> > List address:    [hidden email]
>>>>>>> > List membership:
>>>>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>>>>>>> > List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>>>>>>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>>>>>>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>>>>>>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>>>>>>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> gimp-user-list mailing list
>>>>>>> List address:    [hidden email]
>>>>>>> List membership:
>>>>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>>>>>>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>>>>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>>>>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>>>>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>>>>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>>
>>
>
> --
> ZeMarmot open animation film
> http://film.zemarmot.net
> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>
_______________________________________________
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List address:    [hidden email]
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Re: MacOS

Users mailing list
Hi!

On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 6:37 PM Tres Finocchiaro <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I see some new patches arriving which suggests there's some new activity
> on the Mac port (SDK 10.9 -> 10.10), etc.  I'll jump on the developer list
> as suggested although from what I'm seeing there's -- what appears to be --
> progress so it'll be more for the purposes of familiarizing with the
> build system in the event my assistance is needed.
>

The patches you see are only in a single test branch which I created for
someone who also wants to get familiarized with the build system, just like
you. This being in a branch of the official repo (not master yet though)
allows to get real builds on the CI service (which is otherwise a paid
service).

You are still very welcome to help, and I can even make you a test branch
if you want as well (or you can work on the same test branch with this
other contributor). If you come on the IRC channel (#gimp on irc.gimp.org),
you can also discuss with this new contributor (nickname "Benitoite", and
"Jehan" for me). The more people the better. This brings redundancy if ever
any of us needs to get a bit off-record for a bit (which is perfectly ok,
people have lives) so that we don't end up again in the same situation with
no package maintainer for months.

Jehan


> - [hidden email]
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 3:14 PM Jehan Pagès <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:09 PM Tres Finocchiaro <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the info.  I'll comb the CI in the next week looking for the
>>> download.  Circle-CI recently changed it's retention policy so if I need to
>>> re-fire a build, I'll jump on IRC and introduce myself.
>>>
>>> Note, I only use IRC as-needed since it requires an always-on connection
>>> or cralwing service to read backlogs, but I'm not afraid to jump on.
>>>
>>> Also, I'm a pretty big fan of Gimp.  Switched to it exclusively for
>>> raster about 12 years ago, I'm also the one that whistleblew Sourceforge on
>>> their BS, getting this junkware removed:
>>> https://slashdot.org/submission/4471377/sf-says-adware-bundled-with-gimp-is-intentional
>>>
>>> Anyway, I'll start diving into the CI this next week and post any
>>> high-level progress here.  I realize I'm on the user's list (and that's OK)
>>> but I'll try to be kind as to not overwhelm it with dev-related convo. :D
>>>
>>
>> Didn't realize this was the user list. Maybe we can continue the
>> discussion in the developer list instead (to subscribe, if not already:
>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list) and/or IRC
>> of course.
>>
>> Jehan
>>
>>
>>> -Tres
>>>
>>>
>>> - [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 3:52 PM Jehan Pagès <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi!
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 9:19 PM Tres Finocchiaro <
>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> > he had issues with the new "hardening" rules of macOS
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Although I'm very familiar with notarization and stapling
>>>>> <https://stackoverflow.com/a/53528020/3196753>, the hardened runtimes
>>>>> require a much deeper understanding of C++, so my efforts would likely be
>>>>> futile.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Normally our builds now are notarized, signed and whatnot (I understand
>>>> there are several security layers?) nowadays. We use the Apple ID of GNOME
>>>> (contact Neil McGovern). If needed at some point, we can put you in contact.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I see the build system is 10.9+ (notarization requires a minimum of
>>>>> 10.9, so this is good) however in my experience, the dependencies are a
>>>>> nightmare when targeting older macOSs.  My strategy has been to chain a
>>>>> bunch of custom steps
>>>>> <https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/wiki/Dependencies-MacOS#108-custom-steps> although
>>>>> I'm curious how this is done using Gimp.  At a glance, it appears (perhaps)
>>>>> the dependency listing is simpler.  I see a macos-specific gtk script, that
>>>>> must be doing a lot of the work.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah it's based on: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk-osx
>>>> Alex had a GIMP-specific fork:
>>>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/samm-git/gtk-osx/tree/gimp
>>>> But it's all written in the README, so you probably read it already.
>>>>
>>>> As for the minimum system, initially we were targetting 10.10+ (we try
>>>> to not support OS even unsupported by their developers, i.e. here Apple.
>>>> And actually even 10.10 is not supported anymore by now, according to
>>>> Wikipedia). Cf.
>>>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/blob/gimp-2-10/devel-docs/os-support.txt
>>>> But (if I recall) Alex was saying that supporting 10.9 was not much
>>>> more difficult so we kept as-is at least until things ended up impossible
>>>> (in which case we'd bump up the requirement).
>>>>
>>>> There is also the fact that each time we drop support for an older
>>>> Windows or macOS, we get a lot of hate from people. Of course this doesn't
>>>> stop us but still. Let's say that if we have no reason to break support
>>>> (i.e. doesn't make our life harder), why do it? 🙂
>>>> This being said, if our macOS contributor(s) consider that we have to
>>>> drop support of old version X or Y of macOS for whatever good reason, we'll
>>>> just do it. The doers are basically maintainers of their own part. 😉
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I spot some similarities, such as upstream bugs with otool tools
>>>>> <https://github.com/jralls/gtk-mac-bundler/pull/10>, leveraging a 3rd
>>>>> party dmg creator <https://github.com/andreyvit/create-dmg> (I've
>>>>> used app-dmg instead) but at a glance, the build system appears to be
>>>>> completely automated including signing and notarizing.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think it is, since I can see steps "Importing signing certificate", "Creating
>>>> DMG package" and "Notarizing DMG package" in the CI.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If testing the installer is the next steps before publishing, I can
>>>>> offer that by fetching the URL from the CI logs.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I indeed know the DMG is made available on CircleCI and can be
>>>> downloaded in the "Artifacts" tab of builds. Maybe you'd need an account to
>>>> see this, no idea. Do you see the DMG link?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm only a casual Gimp user though, so I'd be weary of passing a build
>>>>> as good on instinct alone.  Do you have a QC spreadsheet or is it more of a
>>>>> best-effort basis?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To be clear, we have no idea. If this is not in the repository, it
>>>> means that either Alex had not documented it (yet?) or it was just in his
>>>> head. He has been the only one working on GIMP on macOS for like the last 2
>>>> years (and before him, we had another contributor who was also alone for
>>>> many years; it seems we never manage to get more than 1 macOS dev at a
>>>> time! 😕).
>>>>
>>>> I guess you could start creating a QC steps howto and contribute it to
>>>> the repo once you are done. :-)
>>>>
>>>> Sorry to not be of much help, but this is just how much we know nothing
>>>> macOS-related.
>>>>
>>>> Alex's notes are stellar btw.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nice to read. He did put a lot of time and effort on this. We are
>>>> extremely thankful to him (and to any contributor for that matter!).
>>>>
>>>> Note, I use Gimp on macOS Catalina Developer Beta so I'll know right
>>>>> away if the app or a particular feature is blocked and I'm more likely to
>>>>> have stricter (beta) hardening as Apple makes changes to the OS.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cool. :-)
>>>>
>>>> Jehan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -Tres
>>>>>
>>>>> - [hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 2:55 PM Jehan Pagès <
>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Tres,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:34 PM Tres Finocchiaro <
>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jehan,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm the macOS packager for LMMS.  I might be able to help out in his
>>>>>>> absence.  LMMS is written in Qt, so the dependency stack is much
>>>>>>> different than Gimp which is Gtk, but if there's a documented build process
>>>>>>> via MacPorts or Homebrew, I can take a swing at it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know there are non-official MacPorts and Homebrew because it's
>>>>>> written on our website. So these can be good references indeed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ideally we want the build scripts to be public and the build itself
>>>>>> to also be public (not happen on someone's computer for obvious reasons).
>>>>>> This is why Alex (our macOS contributor) has done a lot of work on the
>>>>>> build repository:
>>>>>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build
>>>>>> It would be nice if continuing work were to happen on this same
>>>>>> repository.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for the build itself, it was happening on some CI service called
>>>>>> CircleCI (because macOS builds can be done there, unlike the GNOME Gitlab
>>>>>> CI machines). Builds are there:
>>>>>> https://circleci.com/gh/GNOME/gimp-macos-build
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note: you'll notice that there are builds for GIMP 2.10.18 there,
>>>>>> which was from last time Alex was working on it. We don't really know the
>>>>>> state and in particular if these builds done 2 months ago work well and
>>>>>> safely, since none of us (but Alex) even has an Apple machine so we cannot
>>>>>> test and won't recklessly make public completely untested DMG packages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Last we heard from Alex, he had issues with the new "hardening" rules
>>>>>> of macOS. Basically it made it impossible to run a debugger (lldb), which
>>>>>> is what GIMP tries to do to self-debug when it crashes or encounter
>>>>>> critical errors (a debug feature introduced in GIMP 2.10).
>>>>>> I'm not sure he actually fixed it before going off-radar. If he
>>>>>> didn't and the solution is too complicated, a possibility is to not care
>>>>>> about this self-debugging feature of course. It's annoying if it doesn't
>>>>>> work (because it makes reporting/fixing bugs easier), but it is better to
>>>>>> have a package without the feature than none obviously. :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In any case, we will definitely welcome the help. Feel free to look
>>>>>> at the scripts and propose patches/merge requests. I'm not sure if an
>>>>>> access is needed to CircleCI project to see the build details (artifacts,
>>>>>> logs and whatnot). Maybe just connecting with a github account is enough.
>>>>>> If not, we'll try to figure this out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh and last thing, if you have questions, the #gimp IRC channel on
>>>>>> irc.gimp.org is a good place where you can find most developers.
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jehan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Credentials: https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/pull/2271
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Tres
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - [hidden email]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:11 PM Jehan Pagès via gimp-user-list <
>>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 8:16 AM Maurizio Loreti via gimp-user-list <
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > Any foresight for an implementation of GIMP 2.10.18 for MacOS?
>>>>>>>> [I mean
>>>>>>>> > official, not MacPorts (that uses XQuartz) nor Partha's].
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Isn't it you who already asked at least twice the same thing? The
>>>>>>>> answer is
>>>>>>>> still the same as we told you several times already. Our (unique!)
>>>>>>>> macOS
>>>>>>>> contributor has not been available for like more than a month. And
>>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>> fair, I don't care as much about the macOS version of GIMP as I am
>>>>>>>> worried
>>>>>>>> about this contributor and hoping he (and his family) is still fine
>>>>>>>> as we
>>>>>>>> get no news.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since you knew already about the situation, a bit of compassion
>>>>>>>> would not
>>>>>>>> be a bad thing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > If GIMP has problems with MacOS, what are these problems?
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Isn't *no contributor* enough of a problem by itself? The problem
>>>>>>>> is that
>>>>>>>> nobody seem to care enough to help this package happen (only enough
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> **ask** for it apparently). We have called for contributors so many
>>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>>> over the years (and again recently, so much there has even been a
>>>>>>>> French
>>>>>>>> specialized mac-news website who relayed the call a few weeks ago!).
>>>>>>>> This contributor could be you if you want to help packaging!
>>>>>>>> The current version of scripts are there:
>>>>>>>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are only 3 possible outcomes:
>>>>>>>> 1/ This contributor finally comes back and he continues *alone* 😢
>>>>>>>> to do
>>>>>>>> all the mac packaging.
>>>>>>>> 2/ Other people finally show they care by contributing.
>>>>>>>> 3/ A mix of 1/ and 2/ which is the best outcome!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In none of these scenarios just asking without contributing helps
>>>>>>>> in any
>>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>> Thanks for either helping or understanding. 🙂
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jehan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>>> > Maurizio Loreti  --  [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> > gimp-user-list mailing list
>>>>>>>> > List address:    [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> > List membership:
>>>>>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>>>>>>>> > List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>>>>>>>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>>>>>>>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>>>>>>>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>>>>>>>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> gimp-user-list mailing list
>>>>>>>> List address:    [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> List membership:
>>>>>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>>>>>>>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>>>>>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>>>>>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>>>>>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>>>>>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>>>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>>>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>>>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>>>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>
>

--
ZeMarmot open animation film
http://film.zemarmot.net
Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
_______________________________________________
gimp-user-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
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Re: MacOS

Users mailing list
>
> If you come on the IRC channel (#gimp on irc.gimp.org), you can also
> discuss with this new contributor (nickname "Benitoite", and "Jehan" for
> me).


My workflow doesn't jive well with IRC, but I'll hop on for a bit to say
hello. :)

- [hidden email]


On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 2:00 PM Jehan Pagès <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi!
>
> On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 6:37 PM Tres Finocchiaro <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I see some new patches arriving which suggests there's some new activity
>> on the Mac port (SDK 10.9 -> 10.10), etc.  I'll jump on the developer list
>> as suggested although from what I'm seeing there's -- what appears to be --
>> progress so it'll be more for the purposes of familiarizing with the
>> build system in the event my assistance is needed.
>>
>
> The patches you see are only in a single test branch which I created for
> someone who also wants to get familiarized with the build system, just like
> you. This being in a branch of the official repo (not master yet though)
> allows to get real builds on the CI service (which is otherwise a paid
> service).
>
> You are still very welcome to help, and I can even make you a test branch
> if you want as well (or you can work on the same test branch with this
> other contributor). If you come on the IRC channel (#gimp on irc.gimp.org),
> you can also discuss with this new contributor (nickname "Benitoite", and
> "Jehan" for me). The more people the better. This brings redundancy if ever
> any of us needs to get a bit off-record for a bit (which is perfectly ok,
> people have lives) so that we don't end up again in the same situation with
> no package maintainer for months.
>
> Jehan
>
>
>> - [hidden email]
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 3:14 PM Jehan Pagès <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:09 PM Tres Finocchiaro <
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for the info.  I'll comb the CI in the next week looking for the
>>>> download.  Circle-CI recently changed it's retention policy so if I need to
>>>> re-fire a build, I'll jump on IRC and introduce myself.
>>>>
>>>> Note, I only use IRC as-needed since it requires an always-on
>>>> connection or cralwing service to read backlogs, but I'm not afraid to jump
>>>> on.
>>>>
>>>> Also, I'm a pretty big fan of Gimp.  Switched to it exclusively for
>>>> raster about 12 years ago, I'm also the one that whistleblew Sourceforge on
>>>> their BS, getting this junkware removed:
>>>> https://slashdot.org/submission/4471377/sf-says-adware-bundled-with-gimp-is-intentional
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, I'll start diving into the CI this next week and post any
>>>> high-level progress here.  I realize I'm on the user's list (and that's OK)
>>>> but I'll try to be kind as to not overwhelm it with dev-related convo. :D
>>>>
>>>
>>> Didn't realize this was the user list. Maybe we can continue the
>>> discussion in the developer list instead (to subscribe, if not already:
>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list) and/or IRC
>>> of course.
>>>
>>> Jehan
>>>
>>>
>>>> -Tres
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 3:52 PM Jehan Pagès <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 9:19 PM Tres Finocchiaro <
>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> > he had issues with the new "hardening" rules of macOS
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Although I'm very familiar with notarization and stapling
>>>>>> <https://stackoverflow.com/a/53528020/3196753>, the hardened
>>>>>> runtimes require a much deeper understanding of C++, so my efforts would
>>>>>> likely be futile.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Normally our builds now are notarized, signed and whatnot (I
>>>>> understand there are several security layers?) nowadays. We use the Apple
>>>>> ID of GNOME (contact Neil McGovern). If needed at some point, we can put
>>>>> you in contact.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I see the build system is 10.9+ (notarization requires a minimum of
>>>>>> 10.9, so this is good) however in my experience, the dependencies are a
>>>>>> nightmare when targeting older macOSs.  My strategy has been to chain a
>>>>>> bunch of custom steps
>>>>>> <https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/wiki/Dependencies-MacOS#108-custom-steps> although
>>>>>> I'm curious how this is done using Gimp.  At a glance, it appears (perhaps)
>>>>>> the dependency listing is simpler.  I see a macos-specific gtk script, that
>>>>>> must be doing a lot of the work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah it's based on: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk-osx
>>>>> Alex had a GIMP-specific fork:
>>>>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/samm-git/gtk-osx/tree/gimp
>>>>> But it's all written in the README, so you probably read it already.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the minimum system, initially we were targetting 10.10+ (we try
>>>>> to not support OS even unsupported by their developers, i.e. here Apple.
>>>>> And actually even 10.10 is not supported anymore by now, according to
>>>>> Wikipedia). Cf.
>>>>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/blob/gimp-2-10/devel-docs/os-support.txt
>>>>> But (if I recall) Alex was saying that supporting 10.9 was not much
>>>>> more difficult so we kept as-is at least until things ended up impossible
>>>>> (in which case we'd bump up the requirement).
>>>>>
>>>>> There is also the fact that each time we drop support for an older
>>>>> Windows or macOS, we get a lot of hate from people. Of course this doesn't
>>>>> stop us but still. Let's say that if we have no reason to break support
>>>>> (i.e. doesn't make our life harder), why do it? 🙂
>>>>> This being said, if our macOS contributor(s) consider that we have to
>>>>> drop support of old version X or Y of macOS for whatever good reason, we'll
>>>>> just do it. The doers are basically maintainers of their own part. 😉
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I spot some similarities, such as upstream bugs with otool tools
>>>>>> <https://github.com/jralls/gtk-mac-bundler/pull/10>, leveraging a 3rd
>>>>>> party dmg creator <https://github.com/andreyvit/create-dmg> (I've
>>>>>> used app-dmg instead) but at a glance, the build system appears to be
>>>>>> completely automated including signing and notarizing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it is, since I can see steps "Importing signing certificate",
>>>>> "Creating DMG package" and "Notarizing DMG package" in the CI.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> If testing the installer is the next steps before publishing, I can
>>>>>> offer that by fetching the URL from the CI logs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I indeed know the DMG is made available on CircleCI and can be
>>>>> downloaded in the "Artifacts" tab of builds. Maybe you'd need an account to
>>>>> see this, no idea. Do you see the DMG link?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm only a casual Gimp user though, so I'd be weary of passing a
>>>>>> build as good on instinct alone.  Do you have a QC spreadsheet or is it
>>>>>> more of a best-effort basis?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To be clear, we have no idea. If this is not in the repository, it
>>>>> means that either Alex had not documented it (yet?) or it was just in his
>>>>> head. He has been the only one working on GIMP on macOS for like the last 2
>>>>> years (and before him, we had another contributor who was also alone for
>>>>> many years; it seems we never manage to get more than 1 macOS dev at a
>>>>> time! 😕).
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess you could start creating a QC steps howto and contribute it to
>>>>> the repo once you are done. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry to not be of much help, but this is just how much we know
>>>>> nothing macOS-related.
>>>>>
>>>>> Alex's notes are stellar btw.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nice to read. He did put a lot of time and effort on this. We are
>>>>> extremely thankful to him (and to any contributor for that matter!).
>>>>>
>>>>> Note, I use Gimp on macOS Catalina Developer Beta so I'll know right
>>>>>> away if the app or a particular feature is blocked and I'm more likely to
>>>>>> have stricter (beta) hardening as Apple makes changes to the OS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cool. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Jehan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> -Tres
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - [hidden email]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 2:55 PM Jehan Pagès <
>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Tres,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:34 PM Tres Finocchiaro <
>>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jehan,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm the macOS packager for LMMS.  I might be able to help out in
>>>>>>>> his absence.  LMMS is written in Qt, so the dependency stack is much
>>>>>>>> different than Gimp which is Gtk, but if there's a documented build process
>>>>>>>> via MacPorts or Homebrew, I can take a swing at it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know there are non-official MacPorts and Homebrew because it's
>>>>>>> written on our website. So these can be good references indeed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ideally we want the build scripts to be public and the build itself
>>>>>>> to also be public (not happen on someone's computer for obvious reasons).
>>>>>>> This is why Alex (our macOS contributor) has done a lot of work on the
>>>>>>> build repository:
>>>>>>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build
>>>>>>> It would be nice if continuing work were to happen on this same
>>>>>>> repository.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for the build itself, it was happening on some CI service called
>>>>>>> CircleCI (because macOS builds can be done there, unlike the GNOME Gitlab
>>>>>>> CI machines). Builds are there:
>>>>>>> https://circleci.com/gh/GNOME/gimp-macos-build
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note: you'll notice that there are builds for GIMP 2.10.18 there,
>>>>>>> which was from last time Alex was working on it. We don't really know the
>>>>>>> state and in particular if these builds done 2 months ago work well and
>>>>>>> safely, since none of us (but Alex) even has an Apple machine so we cannot
>>>>>>> test and won't recklessly make public completely untested DMG packages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Last we heard from Alex, he had issues with the new "hardening"
>>>>>>> rules of macOS. Basically it made it impossible to run a debugger (lldb),
>>>>>>> which is what GIMP tries to do to self-debug when it crashes or encounter
>>>>>>> critical errors (a debug feature introduced in GIMP 2.10).
>>>>>>> I'm not sure he actually fixed it before going off-radar. If he
>>>>>>> didn't and the solution is too complicated, a possibility is to not care
>>>>>>> about this self-debugging feature of course. It's annoying if it doesn't
>>>>>>> work (because it makes reporting/fixing bugs easier), but it is better to
>>>>>>> have a package without the feature than none obviously. :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In any case, we will definitely welcome the help. Feel free to look
>>>>>>> at the scripts and propose patches/merge requests. I'm not sure if an
>>>>>>> access is needed to CircleCI project to see the build details (artifacts,
>>>>>>> logs and whatnot). Maybe just connecting with a github account is enough.
>>>>>>> If not, we'll try to figure this out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh and last thing, if you have questions, the #gimp IRC channel on
>>>>>>> irc.gimp.org is a good place where you can find most developers.
>>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jehan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Credentials: https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/pull/2271
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Tres
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:11 PM Jehan Pagès via gimp-user-list <
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 8:16 AM Maurizio Loreti via gimp-user-list
>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > Any foresight for an implementation of GIMP 2.10.18 for MacOS?
>>>>>>>>> [I mean
>>>>>>>>> > official, not MacPorts (that uses XQuartz) nor Partha's].
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Isn't it you who already asked at least twice the same thing? The
>>>>>>>>> answer is
>>>>>>>>> still the same as we told you several times already. Our (unique!)
>>>>>>>>> macOS
>>>>>>>>> contributor has not been available for like more than a month. And
>>>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>>> fair, I don't care as much about the macOS version of GIMP as I am
>>>>>>>>> worried
>>>>>>>>> about this contributor and hoping he (and his family) is still
>>>>>>>>> fine as we
>>>>>>>>> get no news.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Since you knew already about the situation, a bit of compassion
>>>>>>>>> would not
>>>>>>>>> be a bad thing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > If GIMP has problems with MacOS, what are these problems?
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Isn't *no contributor* enough of a problem by itself? The problem
>>>>>>>>> is that
>>>>>>>>> nobody seem to care enough to help this package happen (only
>>>>>>>>> enough to
>>>>>>>>> **ask** for it apparently). We have called for contributors so
>>>>>>>>> many times
>>>>>>>>> over the years (and again recently, so much there has even been a
>>>>>>>>> French
>>>>>>>>> specialized mac-news website who relayed the call a few weeks
>>>>>>>>> ago!).
>>>>>>>>> This contributor could be you if you want to help packaging!
>>>>>>>>> The current version of scripts are there:
>>>>>>>>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/gimp-macos-build
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are only 3 possible outcomes:
>>>>>>>>> 1/ This contributor finally comes back and he continues *alone* 😢
>>>>>>>>> to do
>>>>>>>>> all the mac packaging.
>>>>>>>>> 2/ Other people finally show they care by contributing.
>>>>>>>>> 3/ A mix of 1/ and 2/ which is the best outcome!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In none of these scenarios just asking without contributing helps
>>>>>>>>> in any
>>>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for either helping or understanding. 🙂
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jehan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>>>> > Maurizio Loreti  --  [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> > gimp-user-list mailing list
>>>>>>>>> > List address:    [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>> > List membership:
>>>>>>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>>>>>>>>> > List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>>>>>>>>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>>>>>>>>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>>>>>>>>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>>>>>>>>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> gimp-user-list mailing list
>>>>>>>>> List address:    [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>> List membership:
>>>>>>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>>>>>>>>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>>>>>>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>>>>>>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>>>>>>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>>>>>>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>>>>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>>>>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>>>>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>>>>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ZeMarmot open animation film
>>> http://film.zemarmot.net
>>> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
>>> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
>>> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>>>
>>
>
> --
> ZeMarmot open animation film
> http://film.zemarmot.net
> Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/ZeMarmot/
> Patreon: https://patreon.com/zemarmot
> Tipeee: https://www.tipeee.com/zemarmot
>
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