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HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Jonathan Kamens-4
I hate the new Save vs. Export behavior. It is completely non-intuitive to me, it makes my brain stumble every time I try to do just about any of the things that I do in GIMP on a regular basis, and it makes most of my workflows take more thought and more button clicks / key presses than they used to.

Here's just one use case that is completely destroyed by this change... Loading a JPG to edit and save back to JPG. Old way:
  1. "gimp file.jpg".
  2. Make changes.
  3. Type ctrl-s periodically while working to save progress.
  4. Type ctrl-q.
New way:
  1. "gimp file.jpg".
  2. Make changes.
  3. Open File menu and select "Overwrite" (no keyboard shortcut for that!).
  4. Periodically type ctrl-e to save further progress (because for some inexplicable reason, once you use the "Overwrite" command it disappears and is replaced with the "Export" command which appears to do exactly the same thing, but this one has a keyboard shortcut; how does that make sense, exactly)?
  5. Type ctrl-q.
  6. GIMP tells me I have unsaved changes, even though I just saved them with ctrl-e.
  7. Click "Discard Changes" to really exit.
If I can't remember whether I've saved already or not and hit ctrl-e instead of using File | Overwrite, an export dialog pops up and if I just accept the file name in it, I am asked to confirm that I want to replace the file. Then I'm prompted for export settings. This is absurd.

Here's another use case that's rendered more complex by this change... Load an image, edit, and save in a different format. Old way:
  1. "gimp image.fmt1".
  2. Make changes.
  3. ctrl-shift-s.
  4. Modify extension in save dialog.
  5. ctrl-q.
New way:
  1. "gimp image.fmt1".
  2. Make changes.
  3. ctrl-shift-e. (and, mind you, I have to remember that it's shift-ctrl-e, instead of shift-ctrl-s like in every other freakin' application I use on either Linux and Windows)
  4. Modify extension in save dialog.
  5. Type ctrl-q.
  6. GIMP tells me that I have unsaved changes, even though I just saved them with shift-ctrl-e.
  7. Click "Discard Changes" to really exit.
But what about when I do want to load an image in a non-XCF format and then save as XCF? Well, Ctrl-shift-e won't work for that, because the export dialog doesn't let you export as XCF. I see no advantage whatsoever to this restriction. So I have to remember that in this one special case of changing the format of an image, I have to use ctrl-s instead of ctrl-shift-e.

There isn't a single thing that I use GIMP for that is made easier or faster by this interface change. Not one thing.

I understand that there is "information loss" when an image is saved as a format other than XCF. But the fact of the matter is that when all I'm doing is retouching an image, which is what I do most with gimp, I don't give a flying fig about that "information loss." I just want the image to save, nice and easy, when I'm done editing it. And I don't want to have to remember different commands for GIMP than for every other program I use. And I don't want the command I have to use the first time I save an image to be different from the command I use the next time; that just makes no sense. Because of this particular "feature," I can't even make this problem less onerous by swapping the ctrl-s/ctrl-e and shift-ctrl-s/shift-ctrl-e bindings. Brilliant!

I understand that the GIMP developers consider XCF a "special" format which deserves special treatment. Well, I don't, and I'm sure there are many, many users like me who don't either. This change is just sticking a thumb in all of our eyes.

You could have done this the LibreOffice way... When you try to save an image loaded from a format with information loss, you get a pop-up warning you and giving you the choice of whether to proceed or save as XCF (and also giving you the choice to make this warning go away in the future and just save like you told it to). This is what LibreOffice does, e.g., when you load and then try to save a DOC file.

Or you could have made this change at least a little bit less onerous by making the save dialog default to XCF but allowing the user to edit the extension to save to another format. But no, if you try to do that, it tells you, "Sorry, this dialog only saves in XCF format," and you have to cancel out of it and export instead.

In my opinion, this change is a huge, huge step backward in useability.

  Jonathan Kamens


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Re: HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Kasim Ahmic
I couldn't agree more!

Could the developers possibly add an option to revert back to the old system?

Sent from my iPod

On May 2, 2012, at 8:45 PM, Jonathan Kamens <[hidden email]> wrote:

I hate the new Save vs. Export behavior. It is completely non-intuitive to me, it makes my brain stumble every time I try to do just about any of the things that I do in GIMP on a regular basis, and it makes most of my workflows take more thought and more button clicks / key presses than they used to.

Here's just one use case that is completely destroyed by this change... Loading a JPG to edit and save back to JPG. Old way:
  1. "gimp file.jpg".
  2. Make changes.
  3. Type ctrl-s periodically while working to save progress.
  4. Type ctrl-q.
New way:
  1. "gimp file.jpg".
  2. Make changes.
  3. Open File menu and select "Overwrite" (no keyboard shortcut for that!).
  4. Periodically type ctrl-e to save further progress (because for some inexplicable reason, once you use the "Overwrite" command it disappears and is replaced with the "Export" command which appears to do exactly the same thing, but this one has a keyboard shortcut; how does that make sense, exactly)?
  5. Type ctrl-q.
  6. GIMP tells me I have unsaved changes, even though I just saved them with ctrl-e.
  7. Click "Discard Changes" to really exit.
If I can't remember whether I've saved already or not and hit ctrl-e instead of using File | Overwrite, an export dialog pops up and if I just accept the file name in it, I am asked to confirm that I want to replace the file. Then I'm prompted for export settings. This is absurd.

Here's another use case that's rendered more complex by this change... Load an image, edit, and save in a different format. Old way:
  1. "gimp image.fmt1".
  2. Make changes.
  3. ctrl-shift-s.
  4. Modify extension in save dialog.
  5. ctrl-q.
New way:
  1. "gimp image.fmt1".
  2. Make changes.
  3. ctrl-shift-e. (and, mind you, I have to remember that it's shift-ctrl-e, instead of shift-ctrl-s like in every other freakin' application I use on either Linux and Windows)
  4. Modify extension in save dialog.
  5. Type ctrl-q.
  6. GIMP tells me that I have unsaved changes, even though I just saved them with shift-ctrl-e.
  7. Click "Discard Changes" to really exit.
But what about when I do want to load an image in a non-XCF format and then save as XCF? Well, Ctrl-shift-e won't work for that, because the export dialog doesn't let you export as XCF. I see no advantage whatsoever to this restriction. So I have to remember that in this one special case of changing the format of an image, I have to use ctrl-s instead of ctrl-shift-e.

There isn't a single thing that I use GIMP for that is made easier or faster by this interface change. Not one thing.

I understand that there is "information loss" when an image is saved as a format other than XCF. But the fact of the matter is that when all I'm doing is retouching an image, which is what I do most with gimp, I don't give a flying fig about that "information loss." I just want the image to save, nice and easy, when I'm done editing it. And I don't want to have to remember different commands for GIMP than for every other program I use. And I don't want the command I have to use the first time I save an image to be different from the command I use the next time; that just makes no sense. Because of this particular "feature," I can't even make this problem less onerous by swapping the ctrl-s/ctrl-e and shift-ctrl-s/shift-ctrl-e bindings. Brilliant!

I understand that the GIMP developers consider XCF a "special" format which deserves special treatment. Well, I don't, and I'm sure there are many, many users like me who don't either. This change is just sticking a thumb in all of our eyes.

You could have done this the LibreOffice way... When you try to save an image loaded from a format with information loss, you get a pop-up warning you and giving you the choice of whether to proceed or save as XCF (and also giving you the choice to make this warning go away in the future and just save like you told it to). This is what LibreOffice does, e.g., when you load and then try to save a DOC file.

Or you could have made this change at least a little bit less onerous by making the save dialog default to XCF but allowing the user to edit the extension to save to another format. But no, if you try to do that, it tells you, "Sorry, this dialog only saves in XCF format," and you have to cancel out of it and export instead.

In my opinion, this change is a huge, huge step backward in useability.

  Jonathan Kamens

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Re: HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Bugzilla from kmg952@bigpond.com
In reply to this post by Jonathan Kamens-4

Add another vote for the old way.

 

Please, Mr Developers, listen to the user base.

 

Kev

On Wed May 2 2012 20:45:16 Jonathan Kamens wrote:

I hate the new Save vs. Export behavior. It is completely non-intuitive to me, it makes my brain stumble every time I try to do just about any of the things that I do in GIMP on a regular basis, and it makes most of my workflows take more thought and more button clicks / key presses than they used to.
<snip>


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Re: HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Paul Read
In reply to this post by Kasim Ahmic

I love the new way  much much more logical and easier and effective to use
Please dont remove this feature.
Paul

On May 3, 2012 2:31 AM, "Kasim Ahmic" <[hidden email]> wrote:
I couldn't agree more!

Could the developers possibly add an option to revert back to the old system?

Sent from my iPod

On May 2, 2012, at 8:45 PM, Jonathan Kamens <[hidden email]> wrote:

I hate the new Save vs. Export behavior. It is completely non-intuitive to me, it makes my brain stumble every time I try to do just about any of the things that I do in GIMP on a regular basis, and it makes most of my workflows take more thought and more button clicks / key presses than they used to.

Here's just one use case that is completely destroyed by this change... Loading a JPG to edit and save back to JPG. Old way:
  1. "gimp file.jpg".
  2. Make changes.
  3. Type ctrl-s periodically while working to save progress.
  4. Type ctrl-q.
New way:
  1. "gimp file.jpg".
  2. Make changes.
  3. Open File menu and select "Overwrite" (no keyboard shortcut for that!).
  4. Periodically type ctrl-e to save further progress (because for some inexplicable reason, once you use the "Overwrite" command it disappears and is replaced with the "Export" command which appears to do exactly the same thing, but this one has a keyboard shortcut; how does that make sense, exactly)?
  5. Type ctrl-q.
  6. GIMP tells me I have unsaved changes, even though I just saved them with ctrl-e.
  7. Click "Discard Changes" to really exit.
If I can't remember whether I've saved already or not and hit ctrl-e instead of using File | Overwrite, an export dialog pops up and if I just accept the file name in it, I am asked to confirm that I want to replace the file. Then I'm prompted for export settings. This is absurd.

Here's another use case that's rendered more complex by this change... Load an image, edit, and save in a different format. Old way:
  1. "gimp image.fmt1".
  2. Make changes.
  3. ctrl-shift-s.
  4. Modify extension in save dialog.
  5. ctrl-q.
New way:
  1. "gimp image.fmt1".
  2. Make changes.
  3. ctrl-shift-e. (and, mind you, I have to remember that it's shift-ctrl-e, instead of shift-ctrl-s like in every other freakin' application I use on either Linux and Windows)
  4. Modify extension in save dialog.
  5. Type ctrl-q.
  6. GIMP tells me that I have unsaved changes, even though I just saved them with shift-ctrl-e.
  7. Click "Discard Changes" to really exit.
But what about when I do want to load an image in a non-XCF format and then save as XCF? Well, Ctrl-shift-e won't work for that, because the export dialog doesn't let you export as XCF. I see no advantage whatsoever to this restriction. So I have to remember that in this one special case of changing the format of an image, I have to use ctrl-s instead of ctrl-shift-e.

There isn't a single thing that I use GIMP for that is made easier or faster by this interface change. Not one thing.

I understand that there is "information loss" when an image is saved as a format other than XCF. But the fact of the matter is that when all I'm doing is retouching an image, which is what I do most with gimp, I don't give a flying fig about that "information loss." I just want the image to save, nice and easy, when I'm done editing it. And I don't want to have to remember different commands for GIMP than for every other program I use. And I don't want the command I have to use the first time I save an image to be different from the command I use the next time; that just makes no sense. Because of this particular "feature," I can't even make this problem less onerous by swapping the ctrl-s/ctrl-e and shift-ctrl-s/shift-ctrl-e bindings. Brilliant!

I understand that the GIMP developers consider XCF a "special" format which deserves special treatment. Well, I don't, and I'm sure there are many, many users like me who don't either. This change is just sticking a thumb in all of our eyes.

You could have done this the LibreOffice way... When you try to save an image loaded from a format with information loss, you get a pop-up warning you and giving you the choice of whether to proceed or save as XCF (and also giving you the choice to make this warning go away in the future and just save like you told it to). This is what LibreOffice does, e.g., when you load and then try to save a DOC file.

Or you could have made this change at least a little bit less onerous by making the save dialog default to XCF but allowing the user to edit the extension to save to another format. But no, if you try to do that, it tells you, "Sorry, this dialog only saves in XCF format," and you have to cancel out of it and export instead.

In my opinion, this change is a huge, huge step backward in useability.

  Jonathan Kamens

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Re: HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Jonathan Kamens-4

On 05/02/2012 10:03 PM, Paul Read wrote:

I love the new way  much much more logical and easier and effective to use

Could you elaborate on why it is more logical and easier and effective to use? What use cases do you perform on a regular basis which are improved by the new interface?

I'm asking because I truly don't understand. I'm sure there must be some reason why the developers felt the interface changes would make sense to some users, but I just don't get it. Can you help me understand what's better now?

  jik


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Re: HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Alexandre Prokoudine
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 6:10 AM, Jonathan Kamens wrote:

> Could you elaborate on why it is more logical and easier and effective to
> use? What use cases do you perform on a regular basis which are improved by
> the new interface?

Working on a multilayer composition and quickly non-disruptively
exporting to a Dropbox folder. Which is what like 99,99999% designers
do today.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Jonathan Kamens-4
On 05/02/2012 10:17 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 6:10 AM, Jonathan Kamens wrote:

Could you elaborate on why it is more logical and easier and effective to
use? What use cases do you perform on a regular basis which are improved by
the new interface?
Working on a multilayer composition and quickly non-disruptively
exporting to a Dropbox folder. Which is what like 99,99999% designers
do today.
This use case could have been made "quick" and "non-disruptive" by adding a new export command without changing the behavior of the save command.

This use case does not explain why it makes sense for the first time you save a file you loaded from JPG, the command is "Overwrite", which has no key binding, and after that first time the "Overwrite" command disappears and is replaced by "Export" and "Overwrite" is no longer available.

This use case does not explain why it makes sense for an image which was loaded from JPG, was never an XCF, and does not have multiple layers, to default to saving as XCF rather than JPG.

This use case does not explain why it makes sense for an image which was loaded from JPG, was never an XCF, and is saved back to the JPG from which it was loaded, to be considered unsaved and modified when you try to quit from GIMP.

Aside from all of that, what percentage of the GIMP user base is "designers" for whom this functionality makes sense? The GIMP web site lists "photo retouching" first on the list of tasks that GIMP is good for, which would seem to imply that it is also the most common task that GIMP is used for, and the new interface is vastly inferior to the old for that task.

Did whoever design and implement this change document the thinking behind it and the effort that went into usability testing / surveying the user base / whatever to confirm that it would help more people than it hurt? If so, then I would love a pointer to that documentation so I can read it. I'm certainly open to being convinced that enough people will be helped by this change that I'm in the minority and should get used to it, but "because the developer who made the change thought it should work this way" is not a particularly compelling argument.

  jik


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Re: HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Christen Anderson
In reply to this post by Jonathan Kamens-4
ooops... sorry. must've hit "reply" instead of "reply all." there... this should be right. ;-)

On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 8:38 PM, Jonathan Kamens <[hidden email]> wrote:
Say it on the list, not to me privately. :-)


On 05/02/2012 10:17 PM, Christen Anderson wrote:
+1 to everything you said.

On 5/2/2012 6:45 PM, Jonathan Kamens wrote:
I hate the new Save vs. Export behavior. It is completely non-intuitive to me, it makes my brain stumble every time I try to do just about any of the things that I do in GIMP on a regular basis, and it makes most of my workflows take more thought and more button clicks / key presses than they used to.

Here's just one use case that is completely destroyed by this change... Loading a JPG to edit and save back to JPG. Old way:
  1. "gimp file.jpg".
  2. Make changes.
  3. Type ctrl-s periodically while working to save progress.
  4. Type ctrl-q.
New way:
  1. "gimp file.jpg".
  2. Make changes.
  3. Open File menu and select "Overwrite" (no keyboard shortcut for that!).
  4. Periodically type ctrl-e to save further progress (because for some inexplicable reason, once you use the "Overwrite" command it disappears and is replaced with the "Export" command which appears to do exactly the same thing, but this one has a keyboard shortcut; how does that make sense, exactly)?
  5. Type ctrl-q.
  6. GIMP tells me I have unsaved changes, even though I just saved them with ctrl-e.
  7. Click "Discard Changes" to really exit.
If I can't remember whether I've saved already or not and hit ctrl-e instead of using File | Overwrite, an export dialog pops up and if I just accept the file name in it, I am asked to confirm that I want to replace the file. Then I'm prompted for export settings. This is absurd.

Here's another use case that's rendered more complex by this change... Load an image, edit, and save in a different format. Old way:
  1. "gimp image.fmt1".
  2. Make changes.
  3. ctrl-shift-s.
  4. Modify extension in save dialog.
  5. ctrl-q.
New way:
  1. "gimp image.fmt1".
  2. Make changes.
  3. ctrl-shift-e. (and, mind you, I have to remember that it's shift-ctrl-e, instead of shift-ctrl-s like in every other freakin' application I use on either Linux and Windows)
  4. Modify extension in save dialog.
  5. Type ctrl-q.
  6. GIMP tells me that I have unsaved changes, even though I just saved them with shift-ctrl-e.
  7. Click "Discard Changes" to really exit.
But what about when I do want to load an image in a non-XCF format and then save as XCF? Well, Ctrl-shift-e won't work for that, because the export dialog doesn't let you export as XCF. I see no advantage whatsoever to this restriction. So I have to remember that in this one special case of changing the format of an image, I have to use ctrl-s instead of ctrl-shift-e.

There isn't a single thing that I use GIMP for that is made easier or faster by this interface change. Not one thing.

I understand that there is "information loss" when an image is saved as a format other than XCF. But the fact of the matter is that when all I'm doing is retouching an image, which is what I do most with gimp, I don't give a flying fig about that "information loss." I just want the image to save, nice and easy, when I'm done editing it. And I don't want to have to remember different commands for GIMP than for every other program I use. And I don't want the command I have to use the first time I save an image to be different from the command I use the next time; that just makes no sense. Because of this particular "feature," I can't even make this problem less onerous by swapping the ctrl-s/ctrl-e and shift-ctrl-s/shift-ctrl-e bindings. Brilliant!

I understand that the GIMP developers consider XCF a "special" format which deserves special treatment. Well, I don't, and I'm sure there are many, many users like me who don't either. This change is just sticking a thumb in all of our eyes.

You could have done this the LibreOffice way... When you try to save an image loaded from a format with information loss, you get a pop-up warning you and giving you the choice of whether to proceed or save as XCF (and also giving you the choice to make this warning go away in the future and just save like you told it to). This is what LibreOffice does, e.g., when you load and then try to save a DOC file.

Or you could have made this change at least a little bit less onerous by making the save dialog default to XCF but allowing the user to edit the extension to save to another format. But no, if you try to do that, it tells you, "Sorry, this dialog only saves in XCF format," and you have to cancel out of it and export instead.

In my opinion, this change is a huge, huge step backward in useability.

  Jonathan Kamens



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Re: HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Alexandre Prokoudine
In reply to this post by Jonathan Kamens-4
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 6:38 AM, Jonathan Kamens wrote:

> This use case does not explain why it makes sense for the first time you
> save a file you loaded from JPG, the command is "Overwrite", which has no
> key binding, and after that first time the "Overwrite" command disappears
> and is replaced by "Export" and "Overwrite" is no longer available.
>
> This use case does not explain why it makes sense for an image which was
> loaded from JPG, was never an XCF, and does not have multiple layers, to
> default to saving as XCF rather than JPG.
>
> This use case does not explain why it makes sense for an image which was
> loaded from JPG, was never an XCF, and is saved back to the JPG from which
> it was loaded, to be considered unsaved and modified when you try to quit
> from GIMP.
>
> Aside from all of that, what percentage of the GIMP user base is "designers"
> for whom this functionality makes sense? The GIMP web site lists "photo
> retouching" first on the list of tasks that GIMP is good for, which would
> seem to imply that it is also the most common task that GIMP is used for,
> and the new interface is vastly inferior to the old for that task.

I thought of the best reply to all of this, and I think the shortest
way to explain it is to tell you that you are probably not a targeted
GIMP user.

Further reading:

http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign#product_vision
http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Save_%2B_export_specification

By the way, you can freely map any shortcut to any menu command. Try it :)

Other than that, if you don't do complex work and don't care about
accidentally not saving non-destructive changes such as layers and
masks, perhaps you don't really need GIMP. There is a fair amount of
free image editors that will suit simpler workflows just fine.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Alexandre Prokoudine
In reply to this post by Kasim Ahmic
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:30 AM, Kasim Ahmic wrote:
> I couldn't agree more!
>
> Could the developers possibly add an option to revert back to the old
> system?

It would

1) contradict the product vision
2) conflict with further planned changes

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Kasim Ahmic
I was just thinking like a toggle in the Preferences saying something like "Use old save/export method". But by default it's set to the new method.

Sent from my iPod

On May 2, 2012, at 11:05 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:30 AM, Kasim Ahmic wrote:
>> I couldn't agree more!
>>
>> Could the developers possibly add an option to revert back to the old
>> system?
>
> It would
>
> 1) contradict the product vision
> 2) conflict with further planned changes
>
> Alexandre Prokoudine
> http://libregraphicsworld.org
> _______________________________________________
> gimp-user-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
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Re: HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Alexandre Prokoudine
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Kasim Ahmic <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I was just thinking like a toggle in the Preferences saying something like "Use old save/export method". But by default it's set to the new method.

Kasim.

I encourage you to carefully read intro at
http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Save_%2B_export_specification. It really
explains why this option wouldn't make a lot of sense.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Jonathan Kamens-4
In reply to this post by Alexandre Prokoudine
On 05/02/2012 10:53 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
I thought of the best reply to all of this, and I think the shortest
way to explain it is to tell you that you are probably not a targeted
GIMP user.
It is certainly important for the authors and developers of an application to know who their targeted audience is.

I'm curious, though... Do you know what percentage of the people who actually use GIMP now are part of that target audience?

I mean, let's just say, for the sake of argument, that 50% of your current users are not part of the target audience you envision and will find GIMP harder and harder to use as it is further and further optimized for its target audience, until in the end they go use something else.

Would the folks working on GIMP be OK with that?

Also, it seems to me from the stuff at the URLs you sent that the potential size of the user base for the audience you are targeting is much smaller than the potential user base of more "casual" image editors like me. Do I understand correctly that you are consciously aiming to design the application to be attractive primarily to that much smaller user base?
By the way, you can freely map any shortcut to any menu command. Try it :)
I am already aware of that. As I explained in my first email message in this thread, it does not solve this particular problem because of the incomprehensible decision to make "Overwrite" work the first time but "Export" work after that. What that means is that the key I hit to save an image the first time while I'm working on it can't possibly be the same as the key I hit if I need to save the image subsequent times.

If you changed this one single thing... If you just made the Overwrite command work repeatedly, then yes, people like me could just bind Overwrite to ctrl-S and (mostly) be happy. But even that is not possible in the interface as it is currently implemented, for reasons which escape me.
Other than that, if you don't do complex work and don't care about
accidentally not saving non-destructive changes such as layers and
masks, perhaps you don't really need GIMP. There is a fair amount of
free image editors that will suit simpler workflows just fine.
I use many of GIMP's features. I'm not just removing red-eyes from my family photos. Yeah, I'm not a professional designer; no one is paying me for the output of my work, nor am I publishing it as art. But it feels to me like perhaps the GIMP team's vision of its target audience is overly limiting and in the end will benefit neither GIMP nor its user base.

Overall, I love GIMP, and am exceedingly grateful to everyone who has devoted time and effort to making it better. You are, of course, entitled to make the program whatever you want it to be and target whatever audience you want to target. But I am saddened to learn that perhaps I am not part of that audience, which suggests that over time I am going to love GIMP less and less.

  jik


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Re: HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Kasim Ahmic
In reply to this post by Alexandre Prokoudine
Honestly, this new export/save method is pointless to me. I rarely ever use XCF files unless I'm working with a project that stretches over days and I need to constantly make changes to a file with many layers.

99.9% of the time I simply import a PNG or JPEG, edit what I need to edit, and Save (well export rather). Then I check it in a browser and if there's a mistake, I go back fix it and hit Save. It's just so much simpler that way without all the extra "features" like Export, Export To, and Overwrite.

Sent from my iPod

On May 2, 2012, at 11:21 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Kasim Ahmic <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I was just thinking like a toggle in the Preferences saying something like "Use old save/export method". But by default it's set to the new method.
>
> Kasim.
>
> I encourage you to carefully read intro at
> http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Save_%2B_export_specification. It really
> explains why this option wouldn't make a lot of sense.
>
> Alexandre Prokoudine
> http://libregraphicsworld.org
> _______________________________________________
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Re: HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Rob Antonishen
In reply to this post by Jonathan Kamens-4
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Jonathan Kamens  wrote:

    
I use many of GIMP's features. I'm not just removing red-eyes from my family photos. Yeah, I'm not a professional designer; no one is paying me for the output of my work, nor am I publishing it as art. But it feels to me like perhaps the GIMP team's vision of its target audience is overly limiting and in the end will benefit neither GIMP nor its user base.


I have to ask, do really not save your edits as XCF files? Even if I am doing a red eye removal, I duplicate the layer and work on that, saving the file as an XCF, so I can always revert back, if needed....

I find the new paradigm quite intuitive, once I thought about it and gave it a try.  The native format is XCF, which is the only thing you save.  Everything else is an export to a lossy (in some manner) format.

The inconsistent behaviour of the overwrite should probably be brought up to the gimp devs, if it doesn't line up with the outline.

-Rob A>



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Re: HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Oon-Ee Ng
In reply to this post by Jonathan Kamens-4
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 11:21 AM, Jonathan Kamens <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It is certainly important for the authors and developers of an application
> to know who their targeted audience is.
>
> I'm curious, though... Do you know what percentage of the people who
> actually use GIMP now are part of that target audience?
>
> I mean, let's just say, for the sake of argument, that 50% of your current
> users are not part of the target audience you envision and will find GIMP
> harder and harder to use as it is further and further optimized for its
> target audience, until in the end they go use something else.

Not everyone within that hypothetical 50% is going to hate the new
changes. I'm quite okay with them (and I do purely jpeg/png editing as
well...)
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Re: HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Alexandre Prokoudine
In reply to this post by Jonathan Kamens-4
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 7:21 AM, Jonathan Kamens wrote:

> It is certainly important for the authors and developers of an application
> to know who their targeted audience is.
>
> I'm curious, though... Do you know what percentage of the people who
> actually use GIMP now are part of that target audience?

This is simply not the point.

Let's face it: GIMP is mostly misused. People got used to it, because
if they needed a free app with few extra features, they simply had no
choice. Especially on Linux.

If Pinta was released 5 years earlier, the amount of GIMP users on
Linux would probably be a half of what it is now.

Still with me?

The aim is to meet the demands of professionals. Users have a choice:
migrate to simpler apps like Pinta, migrate to complex apps with
familiar workflow such as Krita, or stick to GIMP and adapt their
workflows.

The adaptation is really not as bad as you are trying to picture it. I
know it, because I've gone through this two years ago, and I'm neither
supersmart nor extraflexible.

> Also, it seems to me from the stuff at the URLs you sent that the potential
> size of the user base for the audience you are targeting is much smaller
> than the potential user base of more "casual" image editors like me. Do I
> understand correctly that you are consciously aiming to design the
> application to be attractive primarily to that much smaller user base?

It's a matter of perspective. As far as I can tell, users who try to
think and act big gravitate to more sophisticated software. That
automatically expands the audience (far) beyond hi-end users. But the
development focus is still on hi-end users, because focus is
important.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Paul Read
My use case:  I use GIMP for its mult-layer features, creating images from scratch and I want to save all my work in this multi-layer format (XCF) but I need to send draft versions and the finished image to friends/customers/websites etc as a flat image (e.g. an exported PNG)

So the new interface significantly helps me work much more effectively 

(If I want to edit a jpg photo I normally use other tools, though I probably only cut/crop/red eye so hardly a fair comparision)

Paul


On 3 May 2012 04:48, Alexandre Prokoudine <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 7:21 AM, Jonathan Kamens wrote:

> It is certainly important for the authors and developers of an application
> to know who their targeted audience is.
>
> I'm curious, though... Do you know what percentage of the people who
> actually use GIMP now are part of that target audience?

This is simply not the point.

Let's face it: GIMP is mostly misused. People got used to it, because
if they needed a free app with few extra features, they simply had no
choice. Especially on Linux.

If Pinta was released 5 years earlier, the amount of GIMP users on
Linux would probably be a half of what it is now.

Still with me?

The aim is to meet the demands of professionals. Users have a choice:
migrate to simpler apps like Pinta, migrate to complex apps with
familiar workflow such as Krita, or stick to GIMP and adapt their
workflows.

The adaptation is really not as bad as you are trying to picture it. I
know it, because I've gone through this two years ago, and I'm neither
supersmart nor extraflexible.

> Also, it seems to me from the stuff at the URLs you sent that the potential
> size of the user base for the audience you are targeting is much smaller
> than the potential user base of more "casual" image editors like me. Do I
> understand correctly that you are consciously aiming to design the
> application to be attractive primarily to that much smaller user base?

It's a matter of perspective. As far as I can tell, users who try to
think and act big gravitate to more sophisticated software. That
automatically expands the audience (far) beyond hi-end users. But the
development focus is still on hi-end users, because focus is
important.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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--
Paul



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Re: HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Judah Kleinveldt
In reply to this post by Jonathan Kamens-4
Wow it seems those in disfavour of the new "save-export" function are pretty agro.
I was like that before getting used to new workflows.
It took a lot of me moving from Illustrator and Photoshop to inkscape and Gimp.
Although I still prefer the way the pen tool works in Adobe I'm getting used to the way they ( gimpscape :) ) work.

The beauty of the open source model is that if you prefer a certain way of doing things you have the source of the application at your disposal, tweek it, change it, redo it.

I'd do that if I were in your (The One's who don't like the new 'export-save' dialogue) shoes

I still use 2.6.1 and it seems that once I update, if I ever do, that function makes a lot more sense.

If I export an image to jpg or png hitting ctrl+w exits Gimp without option to save as xcf(which would be the photoshop version of psd).
Any layers or masks are lost.
The new version seems to make this occurance an impossibility.
 I'm doing my update this weekend :)


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Re: HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Kevin Brubeck Unhammer-4
In reply to this post by Jonathan Kamens-4
Jonathan Kamens <[hidden email]> writes:

> I hate the new Save vs. Export behavior. It is completely non-intuitive to me, it makes
> my brain stumble every time I try to do just about any of the things that I do in GIMP
> on a regular basis, and it makes most of my workflows take more thought and more button
> clicks / key presses than they used to.

I love the new behaviour :)

> Here's just one use case that is completely destroyed by this change... Loading a JPG to
> edit and save back to JPG. Old way:
>
>  1. "gimp file.jpg".
>  2. Make changes.
>  3. Type ctrl-s periodically while working to save progress.
>  4. Type ctrl-q.
>
> New way:
>
>  1. "gimp file.jpg".
>  2. Make changes.
>  3. Open File menu and select "Overwrite" (no keyboard shortcut for that!).
>  4. Periodically type ctrl-e to save further progress (because for some inexplicable
>     reason, once you use the "Overwrite" command it disappears and is replaced with the
>     "Export" command which appears to do exactly the same thing, but this one has a
>     keyboard shortcut; how does that make sense, exactly)?
>  5. Type ctrl-q.
>  6. GIMP tells me I have unsaved changes, even though I just saved them with ctrl-e.
>  7. Click "Discard Changes" to really exit.
>
> If I can't remember whether I've saved already or not and hit ctrl-e instead of using
> File | Overwrite, an export dialog pops up and if I just accept the file name in it, I
> am asked to confirm that I want to replace the file. Then I'm prompted for export
> settings. This is absurd.
>
> Here's another use case that's rendered more complex by this change... Load an image,
> edit, and save in a different format. Old way:
>
>  1. "gimp image.fmt1".
>  2. Make changes.
>  3. ctrl-shift-s.
>  4. Modify extension in save dialog.

… and click away the warning about flattening / losing information ;)

>  5. ctrl-q.
>
> New way:
>
>  1. "gimp image.fmt1".
>  2. Make changes.
>  3. ctrl-shift-e. (and, mind you, I have to remember that it's shift-ctrl-e, instead of
>     shift-ctrl-s like in every other freakin' application I use on either Linux and
>     Windows)

You can always rebind it, but is it really that difficult to remember?

>  4. Modify extension in save dialog.
>  5. Type ctrl-q.
>  6. GIMP tells me that I have unsaved changes, even though I just saved them with
>     shift-ctrl-e.

This new warning replaces the old warning about flattening / losing
information.

>  7. Click "Discard Changes" to really exit.
>
> But what about when I do want to load an image in a non-XCF format and then save as XCF?
> Well, Ctrl-shift-e won't work for that, because the export dialog doesn't let you export
> as XCF. I see no advantage whatsoever to this restriction. So I have to remember that in
> this one special case of changing the format of an image, I have to use ctrl-s instead
> of ctrl-shift-e.

For those who use GIMP a lot, XFC is the default case, not the special
case.

> There isn't a single thing that I use GIMP for that is made easier or faster by this
> interface change. Not one thing.

I won't argue against that, but at the same time I don't see the big
problem. It seems the users most likely to argue against it are those
who don't do more than minor touch-ups in GIMP. Those who use GIMP more
extensively, do gain a lot from the new functionality.

> I understand that there is "information loss" when an image is saved as a format other
> than XCF. But the fact of the matter is that when all I'm doing is retouching an image,
> which is what I do most with gimp, I don't give a flying fig about that "information
> loss." I just want the image to save, nice and easy, when I'm done editing it. And I
> don't want to have to remember different commands for GIMP than for every other program
> I use. And I don't want the command I have to use the first time I save an image to be
> different from the command I use the next time; that just makes no sense. Because of
> this particular "feature," I can't even make this problem less onerous by swapping the
> ctrl-s/ctrl-e and shift-ctrl-s/shift-ctrl-e bindings. Brilliant!
>
> I understand that the GIMP developers consider XCF a "special" format which deserves
> special treatment. Well, I don't, and I'm sure there are many, many users like me who
> don't either. This change is just sticking a thumb in all of our eyes.
>
> You could have done this the LibreOffice way... When you try to save an image loaded
> from a format with information loss, you get a pop-up warning you and giving you the
> choice of whether to proceed or save as XCF (and also giving you the choice to make this
> warning go away in the future and just save like you told it to). This is what
> LibreOffice does, e.g., when you load and then try to save a DOC file.

Oh, no, please don't. Doc's at least retain _most_ of the information,
now if you'd said .rtf you'd be closer to the truth …

> Or you could have made this change at least a little bit less onerous by making the save
> dialog default to XCF but allowing the user to edit the extension to save to another
> format. But no, if you try to do that, it tells you, "Sorry, this dialog only saves in
> XCF format," and you have to cancel out of it and export instead.
>
> In my opinion, this change is a huge, huge step backward in useability.
>
>   Jonathan Kamens

The ui docs linked to in this thread argue quite well for the change,
I'll just describe my main use case: I love being able to both save and
export as I go along. Working on a web site, I definitely want to keep
layer info available, so I need the XCF, but to see how it looks in
Firefox, I need the PNG there too. So as I change something, and I want
to quickly see how it looks in Firefox, I can just ctrl+shift+e (then
click reload in Firefox). And it'll retain the path I last specified, so
I don't have to enter anything. And as I go along, I click ctrl+s to
keep the main XCF up-to-date, again without having to re-enter the path.

With the old method, I would work on an XCF, then I had to save as,
select PNG, ignore warnings, then, _very importantly_, I had to remember
to switch back to XCF before I exited GIMP (or had a crash or power-loss
or whatever), otherwise I'd lose the last steps. If I had GIMP focused
but thought I had Firefox focused, and pressed Ctrl+W to close a tab,
it'd take down the image instead with no warning about unsaved changes,
and all the steps after I switched to "preview mode" would be lost. Pure
danger. A graphical program shouldn't make you have to remember not to
shoot yourself in the foot like that.


best regards,
Kevin Brubeck Unhammer

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