Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Developers mailing list]

Hello.

TLDR:
Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's a
developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things that
are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which makes
the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.

FULL:

A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've had a
couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
from the Reddit thread at
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/. While
it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered
Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random
ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade hundreds
of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should refactor
GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). Regardless,
instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release because, bla
bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying that I had
no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither is he
more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just because
of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, which is
what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with people
that have unapproved opinions.

I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to perhaps
getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be honest
sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I didn't say
nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally different
beast.

Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I started
getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre attacked around
Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:

>>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy came
off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to tell
you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same ground
with him just a few days earlier.

Another message:
>>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread
entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
Even if you win, you lose...

Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like "oh,
you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it", or using "we"
in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being important
here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users, because what kind
of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome free stuff for
people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I found out that he's
not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical ways. This is bad
not only because I can excuse his attitude from a developer but not from
someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending to be a developer
to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from communities just
because he implies that he's in the dev team.

I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's doing a
horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project. It's easy to
relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate GIMP
users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really talk to,
because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome project
you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a critic
into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition, pretending
to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the dev team,
since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled assholes.

I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre from
attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since I would
assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) you guys
are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this
behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his attitude
into one that is more productive and appropriate for someone who either
does or claims to represent the GIMP team.

Niccolo.
--
Niccolo.
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[Developers mailing list]

Hi Niccolo,

There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a
conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something they
are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before
drawing conclusions.

When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases we
tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should have kept
my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal abuse
containing expletives.

I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.

Alexandre

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>:

> Hello.
>
> TLDR:
> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's a
> developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things that
> are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which makes
> the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
>
> FULL:
>
> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've had a
> couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is
> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
> from the Reddit thread at
> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/. While
> it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered
> Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random
> ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade hundreds
> of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
> understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should refactor
> GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). Regardless,
> instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release because, bla
> bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying that I had
> no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither is he
> more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just because
> of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, which is
> what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with people
> that have unapproved opinions.
>
> I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to perhaps
> getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be honest
> sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I didn't say
> nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally different
> beast.
>
> Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I started
> getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre attacked around
> Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:
>
> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy came
> off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to tell
> you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same ground
> with him just a few days earlier.
>
> Another message:
> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread
> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
> Even if you win, you lose...
>
> Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like "oh,
> you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it", or using "we"
> in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being important
> here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users, because what kind
> of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome free stuff for
> people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I found out that he's
> not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical ways. This is bad
> not only because I can excuse his attitude from a developer but not from
> someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending to be a developer
> to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from communities just
> because he implies that he's in the dev team.
>
> I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's doing a
> horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project. It's easy to
> relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate GIMP
> users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really talk to,
> because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome project
> you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a critic
> into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition, pretending
> to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the dev team,
> since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled assholes.
>
> I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre from
> attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since I would
> assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) you guys
> are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this
> behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his attitude
> into one that is more productive and appropriate for someone who either
> does or claims to represent the GIMP team.
>
>
> Niccolo.
> --
> Niccolo.
>

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List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

[Developers mailing list]

OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who
doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.

It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with you. I guess
it's you against the world.

Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in case
they have the courage to approve my message or at least reply--if they
approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your behavior
is OK?).

I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't as
much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears), and I
don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for your
actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself only,
but for other people as well.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Niccolo,
>
> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a
> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something they
> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before
> drawing conclusions.
>
> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases we
> tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should have kept
> my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal abuse
> containing expletives.
>
> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.
>
> Alexandre
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Hello.
>>
>> TLDR:
>> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's a
>> developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things that
>> are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which makes
>> the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
>>
>> FULL:
>>
>> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've had
>> a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
>> from the Reddit thread at
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.
>> While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered
>> Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random
>> ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade hundreds
>> of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
>> understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should refactor
>> GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). Regardless,
>> instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release because, bla
>> bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying that I had
>> no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither is he
>> more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just because
>> of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, which is
>> what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with people
>> that have unapproved opinions.
>>
>> I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to perhaps
>> getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be honest
>> sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I didn't say
>> nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally different
>> beast.
>>
>> Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I started
>> getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre attacked around
>> Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:
>>
>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy
>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to
>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same
>> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>
>> Another message:
>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread
>> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
>> Even if you win, you lose...
>>
>> Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like "oh,
>> you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it", or using "we"
>> in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being important
>> here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users, because what kind
>> of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome free stuff for
>> people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I found out that he's
>> not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical ways. This is bad
>> not only because I can excuse his attitude from a developer but not from
>> someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending to be a developer
>> to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from communities just
>> because he implies that he's in the dev team.
>>
>> I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's doing
>> a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project. It's easy to
>> relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate GIMP
>> users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really talk to,
>> because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome project
>> you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a critic
>> into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition, pretending
>> to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the dev team,
>> since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled assholes.
>>
>> I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre from
>> attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since I would
>> assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) you guys
>> are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this
>> behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his attitude
>> into one that is more productive and appropriate for someone who either
>> does or claims to represent the GIMP team.
>>
>>
>> Niccolo.
>> --
>> Niccolo.
>>
> --

Niccolo.
_______________________________________________
gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

[Developers mailing list]

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who
> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.
>
> It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with you. I
> guess it's you against the world.
>
> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in case
> they have the courage to approve my message or at least reply--if they
> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your behavior
> is OK?).
>

I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing lists
you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get
emails sent to those list.


> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't as
> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),
>

Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two other
problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can pinpoint
the relevant threads.

Exhibit A:

>>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy came
off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to tell
you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same ground
with him just a few days earlier.

This is this very thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/

There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to use in
GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to say that
lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's "mindset
of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing I said
in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying "Facts...
Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".

I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the
ropes.

And Exhibit B:

>>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread
entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
Even if you win, you lose...

This is this very thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/

Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend shocking 3
minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining, and
patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person characterized the
official 2.10.8 announcement.

"mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the very
same thread --
https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/
-- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes between
versions.

And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:

"I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of tagging a
release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for the next
version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart attack,
save for our friend /u/Unchayned <https://www.reddit.com/u/Unchayned> here."

There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think our
interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Alex

> and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for your
> actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself only,
> but for other people as well.
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Niccolo,
>>
>> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a
>> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something they
>> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before
>> drawing conclusions.
>>
>> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases we
>> tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should have kept
>> my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal abuse
>> containing expletives.
>>
>> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.
>>
>> Alexandre
>>
>> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> Hello.
>>>
>>> TLDR:
>>> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's a
>>> developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things that
>>> are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which makes
>>> the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
>>>
>>> FULL:
>>>
>>> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've had
>>> a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
>>> from the Reddit thread at
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.
>>> While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered
>>> Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random
>>> ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade hundreds
>>> of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
>>> understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should refactor
>>> GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). Regardless,
>>> instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release because, bla
>>> bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying that I had
>>> no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither is he
>>> more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just because
>>> of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, which is
>>> what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with people
>>> that have unapproved opinions.
>>>
>>> I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to perhaps
>>> getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be honest
>>> sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I didn't say
>>> nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally different
>>> beast.
>>>
>>> Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I started
>>> getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre attacked around
>>> Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:
>>>
>>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy
>>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to
>>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same
>>> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>>
>>> Another message:
>>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread
>>> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
>>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
>>> Even if you win, you lose...
>>>
>>> Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like "oh,
>>> you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it", or using "we"
>>> in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being important
>>> here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users, because what kind
>>> of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome free stuff for
>>> people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I found out that he's
>>> not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical ways. This is bad
>>> not only because I can excuse his attitude from a developer but not from
>>> someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending to be a developer
>>> to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from communities just
>>> because he implies that he's in the dev team.
>>>
>>> I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's doing
>>> a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project. It's easy to
>>> relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate GIMP
>>> users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really talk to,
>>> because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome project
>>> you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a critic
>>> into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition, pretending
>>> to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the dev team,
>>> since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled assholes.
>>>
>>> I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre
>>> from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since I would
>>> assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) you guys
>>> are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this
>>> behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his attitude
>>> into one that is more productive and appropriate for someone who either
>>> does or claims to represent the GIMP team.
>>>
>>>
>>> Niccolo.
>>> --
>>> Niccolo.
>>>
>> --
> Niccolo.
>

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List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
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[Developers mailing list]

Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't know if
people can read it.

Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in court.
I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who represents the
whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep saying
"we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you misrepresent
yourself as a developer of GIMP). This feedback is shared with other
members of the community--which haven't asked to be identified.

Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but
considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that they
know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior is
appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If it's not,
don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be as much
of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree with
you.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
>> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who
>> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.
>>
>> It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with you. I
>> guess it's you against the world.
>>
>> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in
>> case they have the courage to approve my message or at least reply--if they
>> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your behavior
>> is OK?).
>>
>
> I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing lists
> you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get
> emails sent to those list.
>
>
>> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't as
>> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),
>>
>
> Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two other
> problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can pinpoint
> the relevant threads.
>
> Exhibit A:
>
> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy came
> off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to tell
> you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same ground
> with him just a few days earlier.
>
> This is this very thread:
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/
>
> There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to use in
> GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to say that
> lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's "mindset
> of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing I said
> in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying "Facts...
> Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".
>
> I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the
> ropes.
>
> And Exhibit B:
>
> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread
> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
> Even if you win, you lose...
>
> This is this very thread:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/
>
> Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend shocking 3
> minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining, and
> patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person characterized the
> official 2.10.8 announcement.
>
> "mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the very
> same thread --
> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/
> -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes between
> versions.
>
> And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:
>
> "I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of tagging a
> release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for the next
> version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart attack,
> save for our friend /u/Unchayned <https://www.reddit.com/u/Unchayned>
> here."
>
> There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think our
> interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
>
> Alex
>
>
>> and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for your
>> actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself only,
>> but for other people as well.
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Niccolo,
>>>
>>> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a
>>> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something they
>>> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before
>>> drawing conclusions.
>>>
>>> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases
>>> we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should have
>>> kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal
>>> abuse containing expletives.
>>>
>>> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.
>>>
>>> Alexandre
>>>
>>> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>>> Hello.
>>>>
>>>> TLDR:
>>>> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's a
>>>> developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things that
>>>> are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which makes
>>>> the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
>>>>
>>>> FULL:
>>>>
>>>> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've
>>>> had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is
>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
>>>> from the Reddit thread at
>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.
>>>> While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered
>>>> Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random
>>>> ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade hundreds
>>>> of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
>>>> understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should refactor
>>>> GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). Regardless,
>>>> instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release because, bla
>>>> bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying that I had
>>>> no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither is he
>>>> more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just because
>>>> of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, which is
>>>> what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with people
>>>> that have unapproved opinions.
>>>>
>>>> I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to
>>>> perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be honest
>>>> sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I didn't say
>>>> nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally different
>>>> beast.
>>>>
>>>> Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I started
>>>> getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre attacked around
>>>> Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:
>>>>
>>>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy
>>>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to
>>>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same
>>>> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>>>
>>>> Another message:
>>>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another
>>>> thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
>>>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
>>>> Even if you win, you lose...
>>>>
>>>> Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like
>>>> "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it", or using
>>>> "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being
>>>> important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users, because
>>>> what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome free
>>>> stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I found out
>>>> that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical ways.
>>>> This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a developer but
>>>> not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending to be a
>>>> developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from
>>>> communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.
>>>>
>>>> I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's
>>>> doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project. It's easy
>>>> to relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate GIMP
>>>> users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really talk to,
>>>> because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome project
>>>> you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a critic
>>>> into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition, pretending
>>>> to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the dev team,
>>>> since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled assholes.
>>>>
>>>> I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre
>>>> from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since I would
>>>> assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) you guys
>>>> are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this
>>>> behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his
>>>> attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for someone who
>>>> either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Niccolo.
>>>> --
>>>> Niccolo.
>>>>
>>> --
>> Niccolo.
>>
> --

Niccolo.
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[Developers mailing list]

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't know if
> people can read it.
>
> Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in
> court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who
> represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep
> saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you
> misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).
>

I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately -- you
have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they call me
a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.

If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will help
your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.


> Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but
> considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that they
> know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior is
> appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If it's not,
> don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be as much
> of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree with
> you.
>

I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went for,
is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:

https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html

"Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid repetitive
arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____."

Please consider rethinking your interaction here.

Good day to you.

Alex

>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
>>> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who
>>> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.
>>>
>>> It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with you. I
>>> guess it's you against the world.
>>>
>>> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in
>>> case they have the courage to approve my message or at least reply--if they
>>> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your behavior
>>> is OK?).
>>>
>>
>> I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing lists
>> you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get
>> emails sent to those list.
>>
>>
>>> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't as
>>> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),
>>>
>>
>> Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two other
>> problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can pinpoint
>> the relevant threads.
>>
>> Exhibit A:
>>
>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy
>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to
>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same
>> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>
>> This is this very thread:
>>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/
>>
>> There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to use in
>> GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to say that
>> lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's "mindset
>> of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing I said
>> in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying "Facts...
>> Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".
>>
>> I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the
>> ropes.
>>
>> And Exhibit B:
>>
>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread
>> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
>> Even if you win, you lose...
>>
>> This is this very thread:
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/
>>
>> Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend shocking 3
>> minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining, and
>> patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person characterized the
>> official 2.10.8 announcement.
>>
>> "mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the
>> very same thread --
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/
>> -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes between
>> versions.
>>
>> And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:
>>
>> "I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of tagging a
>> release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for the next
>> version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart attack,
>> save for our friend /u/Unchayned <https://www.reddit.com/u/Unchayned>
>> here."
>>
>> There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think our
>> interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>> and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for your
>>> actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself only,
>>> but for other people as well.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine <
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Niccolo,
>>>>
>>>> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a
>>>> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something they
>>>> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before
>>>> drawing conclusions.
>>>>
>>>> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases
>>>> we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should have
>>>> kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal
>>>> abuse containing expletives.
>>>>
>>>> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.
>>>>
>>>> Alexandre
>>>>
>>>> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello.
>>>>>
>>>>> TLDR:
>>>>> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's
>>>>> a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things
>>>>> that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which
>>>>> makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
>>>>>
>>>>> FULL:
>>>>>
>>>>> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've
>>>>> had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is
>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
>>>>> from the Reddit thread at
>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.
>>>>> While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered
>>>>> Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random
>>>>> ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade hundreds
>>>>> of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
>>>>> understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should refactor
>>>>> GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). Regardless,
>>>>> instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release because, bla
>>>>> bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying that I had
>>>>> no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither is he
>>>>> more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just because
>>>>> of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, which is
>>>>> what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with people
>>>>> that have unapproved opinions.
>>>>>
>>>>> I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to
>>>>> perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be honest
>>>>> sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I didn't say
>>>>> nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally different
>>>>> beast.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I started
>>>>> getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre attacked around
>>>>> Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:
>>>>>
>>>>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy
>>>>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to
>>>>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same
>>>>> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another message:
>>>>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another
>>>>> thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
>>>>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
>>>>> Even if you win, you lose...
>>>>>
>>>>> Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like
>>>>> "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it", or using
>>>>> "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being
>>>>> important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users, because
>>>>> what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome free
>>>>> stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I found out
>>>>> that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical ways.
>>>>> This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a developer but
>>>>> not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending to be a
>>>>> developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from
>>>>> communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's
>>>>> doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project. It's easy
>>>>> to relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate GIMP
>>>>> users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really talk to,
>>>>> because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome project
>>>>> you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a critic
>>>>> into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition, pretending
>>>>> to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the dev team,
>>>>> since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled assholes.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre
>>>>> from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since I would
>>>>> assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) you guys
>>>>> are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this
>>>>> behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his
>>>>> attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for someone who
>>>>> either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Niccolo.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Niccolo.
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>> Niccolo.
>>>
>> --
> Niccolo.
>

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List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

[Developers mailing list]

> I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went
for, is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct

Ah, I see how you've been able to get away with it.

Fair enough.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 15:01 Alexandre Prokoudine <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't know
>> if people can read it.
>>
>> Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in
>> court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who
>> represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep
>> saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you
>> misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).
>>
>
> I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately -- you
> have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they call me
> a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.
>
> If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will help
> your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.
>
>
>> Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but
>> considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that they
>> know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior is
>> appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If it's not,
>> don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be as much
>> of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree with
>> you.
>>
>
> I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went for,
> is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:
>
> https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html
>
> "Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid repetitive
> arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____."
>
> Please consider rethinking your interaction here.
>
> Good day to you.
>
> Alex
>
>
>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
>>>> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who
>>>> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.
>>>>
>>>> It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with you. I
>>>> guess it's you against the world.
>>>>
>>>> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in
>>>> case they have the courage to approve my message or at least reply--if they
>>>> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your behavior
>>>> is OK?).
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing
>>> lists you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get
>>> emails sent to those list.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't as
>>>> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),
>>>>
>>>
>>> Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two
>>> other problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can
>>> pinpoint the relevant threads.
>>>
>>> Exhibit A:
>>>
>>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy
>>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to
>>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same
>>> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>>
>>> This is this very thread:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/
>>>
>>> There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to use
>>> in GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to say
>>> that lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's
>>> "mindset of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing
>>> I said in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying
>>> "Facts... Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".
>>>
>>> I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the
>>> ropes.
>>>
>>> And Exhibit B:
>>>
>>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread
>>> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
>>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
>>> Even if you win, you lose...
>>>
>>> This is this very thread:
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/
>>>
>>> Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend shocking
>>> 3 minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining, and
>>> patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person characterized the
>>> official 2.10.8 announcement.
>>>
>>> "mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the
>>> very same thread --
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/
>>> -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes between
>>> versions.
>>>
>>> And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:
>>>
>>> "I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of tagging
>>> a release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for the
>>> next version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart
>>> attack, save for our friend /u/Unchayned
>>> <https://www.reddit.com/u/Unchayned> here."
>>>
>>> There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think our
>>> interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>>
>>>> and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for
>>>> your actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself
>>>> only, but for other people as well.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine <
>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Niccolo,
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a
>>>>> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something they
>>>>> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before
>>>>> drawing conclusions.
>>>>>
>>>>> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases
>>>>> we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should have
>>>>> kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal
>>>>> abuse containing expletives.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Alexandre
>>>>>
>>>>> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TLDR:
>>>>>> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's
>>>>>> a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things
>>>>>> that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which
>>>>>> makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FULL:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've
>>>>>> had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is
>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
>>>>>> from the Reddit thread at
>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.
>>>>>> While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered
>>>>>> Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random
>>>>>> ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade hundreds
>>>>>> of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
>>>>>> understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should refactor
>>>>>> GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). Regardless,
>>>>>> instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release because, bla
>>>>>> bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying that I had
>>>>>> no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither is he
>>>>>> more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just because
>>>>>> of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, which is
>>>>>> what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with people
>>>>>> that have unapproved opinions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to
>>>>>> perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be honest
>>>>>> sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I didn't say
>>>>>> nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally different
>>>>>> beast.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I
>>>>>> started getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre
>>>>>> attacked around Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy
>>>>>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to
>>>>>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same
>>>>>> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another message:
>>>>>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another
>>>>>> thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
>>>>>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
>>>>>> Even if you win, you lose...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like
>>>>>> "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it", or using
>>>>>> "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being
>>>>>> important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users, because
>>>>>> what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome free
>>>>>> stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I found out
>>>>>> that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical ways.
>>>>>> This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a developer but
>>>>>> not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending to be a
>>>>>> developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from
>>>>>> communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's
>>>>>> doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project. It's easy
>>>>>> to relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate GIMP
>>>>>> users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really talk to,
>>>>>> because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome project
>>>>>> you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a critic
>>>>>> into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition, pretending
>>>>>> to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the dev team,
>>>>>> since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled assholes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre
>>>>>> from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since I would
>>>>>> assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) you guys
>>>>>> are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this
>>>>>> behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his
>>>>>> attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for someone who
>>>>>> either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Niccolo.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Niccolo.
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>> Niccolo.
>>>>
>>> --
>> Niccolo.
>>
> --

Niccolo.
_______________________________________________
gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address:    [hidden email]
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

[Developers mailing list]

From a third party perspective, this is where things kicked off in the
thread:

"I didn't say you didn't include any features users ask for, I was just
justifying me complaining.

Why do you guys have to get so pissy so quickly, is it GIMP's code that
makes you that, or you have to pass a "constantly-pissed-off" exam to
become a GIMP dev?
Jesus..."

What baffles me is why people start ranting on forums, making all sorts of
wrong assumptions about GIMP dev motivations, and then expect everyone
involved to stumble over themselves trying to please them.

This is not Starbucks - Abuse of staff will not go unchallenged. :)

Frankly, I'm astounded at Alexandre's restraint.

Just an outsider's perspective.
-C



On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Alexandre Prokoudine via
gimp-developer-list <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't know
> if
> > people can read it.
> >
> > Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in
> > court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who
> > represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep
> > saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you
> > misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).
> >
>
> I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately -- you
> have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they call me
> a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.
>
> If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will help
> your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.
>
>
> > Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but
> > considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that they
> > know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior is
> > appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If it's
> not,
> > don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be as
> much
> > of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree with
> > you.
> >
>
> I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went for,
> is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:
>
> https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html
>
> "Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid repetitive
> arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____."
>
> Please consider rethinking your interaction here.
>
> Good day to you.
>
> Alex
>
>
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
> >>> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who
> >>> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.
> >>>
> >>> It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with you. I
> >>> guess it's you against the world.
> >>>
> >>> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in
> >>> case they have the courage to approve my message or at least reply--if
> they
> >>> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your
> behavior
> >>> is OK?).
> >>>
> >>
> >> I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing
> lists
> >> you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get
> >> emails sent to those list.
> >>
> >>
> >>> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't as
> >>> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),
> >>>
> >>
> >> Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two
> other
> >> problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can
> pinpoint
> >> the relevant threads.
> >>
> >> Exhibit A:
> >>
> >> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy
> >> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just
> wanted to
> >> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same
> >> ground with him just a few days earlier.
> >>
> >> This is this very thread:
> >>
> >>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/
> >>
> >> There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to use
> in
> >> GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to say
> that
> >> lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's
> "mindset
> >> of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing I
> said
> >> in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying
> "Facts...
> >> Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".
> >>
> >> I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the
> >> ropes.
> >>
> >> And Exhibit B:
> >>
> >> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread
> >> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
> >> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
> >> Even if you win, you lose...
> >>
> >> This is this very thread:
> >>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/
> >>
> >> Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend shocking
> 3
> >> minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining, and
> >> patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person characterized
> the
> >> official 2.10.8 announcement.
> >>
> >> "mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the
> >> very same thread --
> >>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/
> >> -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes
> between
> >> versions.
> >>
> >> And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:
> >>
> >> "I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of tagging
> a
> >> release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for the
> next
> >> version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart
> attack,
> >> save for our friend /u/Unchayned <https://www.reddit.com/u/Unchayned>
> >> here."
> >>
> >> There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think our
> >> interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
> >>
> >> Alex
> >>
> >>
> >>> and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for
> your
> >>> actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself
> only,
> >>> but for other people as well.
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine <
> >>> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Niccolo,
> >>>>
> >>>> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a
> >>>> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something
> they
> >>>> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before
> >>>> drawing conclusions.
> >>>>
> >>>> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases
> >>>> we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should
> have
> >>>> kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal
> >>>> abuse containing expletives.
> >>>>
> >>>> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.
> >>>>
> >>>> Alexandre
> >>>>
> >>>> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hello.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> TLDR:
> >>>>> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's
> >>>>> a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing
> things
> >>>>> that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role,
> which
> >>>>> makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> FULL:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've
> >>>>> had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest
> exchange is
> >>>>>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
> >>>>> from the Reddit thread at
> >>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.
> >>>>> While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What
> triggered
> >>>>> Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than
> random
> >>>>> ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade
> hundreds
> >>>>> of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
> >>>>> understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should
> refactor
> >>>>> GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said).
> Regardless,
> >>>>> instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release
> because, bla
> >>>>> bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying
> that I had
> >>>>> no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither
> is he
> >>>>> more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just
> because
> >>>>> of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil,
> which is
> >>>>> what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with
> people
> >>>>> that have unapproved opinions.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to
> >>>>> perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be
> honest
> >>>>> sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I
> didn't say
> >>>>> nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally
> different
> >>>>> beast.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I
> started
> >>>>> getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre attacked
> around
> >>>>> Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy
> >>>>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just
> wanted to
> >>>>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact
> same
> >>>>> ground with him just a few days earlier.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Another message:
> >>>>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another
> >>>>> thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough
> people had
> >>>>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on
> something.
> >>>>> Even if you win, you lose...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like
> >>>>> "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it",
> or using
> >>>>> "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being
> >>>>> important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users,
> because
> >>>>> what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome
> free
> >>>>> stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I
> found out
> >>>>> that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical
> ways.
> >>>>> This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a
> developer but
> >>>>> not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending
> to be a
> >>>>> developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from
> >>>>> communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's
> >>>>> doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project.
> It's easy
> >>>>> to relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate
> GIMP
> >>>>> users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really
> talk to,
> >>>>> because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome
> project
> >>>>> you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a
> critic
> >>>>> into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition,
> pretending
> >>>>> to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the
> dev team,
> >>>>> since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled
> assholes.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre
> >>>>> from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since
> I would
> >>>>> assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) you
> guys
> >>>>> are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this
> >>>>> behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his
> >>>>> attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for
> someone who
> >>>>> either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Niccolo.
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Niccolo.
> >>>>>
> >>>> --
> >>> Niccolo.
> >>>
> >> --
> > Niccolo.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> gimp-developer-list mailing list
> List address:    [hidden email]
> List membership:
> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>

_______________________________________________
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List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
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[Developers mailing list]

Nope.

Everything started because I was called a "backseat viewer", and therefore
not allowed to say that scheduled releases are good. After that I was
replying to that attitude, and not about whether rolling releases are
better (which I had an extremely open mind about).

The message you quoted is way after things started going bad.

As for your comparison with Starbucks, I don't abuse Starbucks employees
and neither I abuse GIMP's staff.

I also don't care about harsh words, I'm not a little snowflake. I just
want to know if GIMP is represented by Alexandre like he implies, and if
the GIMP team is OK with attacking newbies and critics of GIMP saying
they're backseat drivers that are not worth listening to and not worth
explaining things.

I'm not the only one who shares the view that in GIMP there is this
attitude of "if you didn't make it, you're not allowed to talk bad about
it".

If that's the culture at GIMP, I'm not gonna cry. Just say it.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:00 C R <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From a third party perspective, this is where things kicked off in the
> thread:
>
> "I didn't say you didn't include any features users ask for, I was just
> justifying me complaining.
>
> Why do you guys have to get so pissy so quickly, is it GIMP's code that
> makes you that, or you have to pass a "constantly-pissed-off" exam to
> become a GIMP dev?
> Jesus..."
>
> What baffles me is why people start ranting on forums, making all sorts of
> wrong assumptions about GIMP dev motivations, and then expect everyone
> involved to stumble over themselves trying to please them.
>
> This is not Starbucks - Abuse of staff will not go unchallenged. :)
>
> Frankly, I'm astounded at Alexandre's restraint.
>
> Just an outsider's perspective.
> -C
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Alexandre Prokoudine via
> gimp-developer-list <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't know
>> if
>> > people can read it.
>> >
>> > Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in
>> > court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who
>> > represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep
>> > saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you
>> > misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).
>> >
>>
>> I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately -- you
>> have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they call me
>> a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.
>>
>> If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will help
>> your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.
>>
>>
>> > Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but
>> > considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that
>> they
>> > know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior is
>> > appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If it's
>> not,
>> > don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be as
>> much
>> > of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree with
>> > you.
>> >
>>
>> I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went for,
>> is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:
>>
>> https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html
>>
>> "Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid repetitive
>> arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____."
>>
>> Please consider rethinking your interaction here.
>>
>> Good day to you.
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>> >
>> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine <
>> > [hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
>> >>> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who
>> >>> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.
>> >>>
>> >>> It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with you. I
>> >>> guess it's you against the world.
>> >>>
>> >>> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in
>> >>> case they have the courage to approve my message or at least
>> reply--if they
>> >>> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your
>> behavior
>> >>> is OK?).
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing
>> lists
>> >> you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get
>> >> emails sent to those list.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't
>> as
>> >>> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two
>> other
>> >> problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can
>> pinpoint
>> >> the relevant threads.
>> >>
>> >> Exhibit A:
>> >>
>> >> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy
>> >> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just
>> wanted to
>> >> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same
>> >> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>> >>
>> >> This is this very thread:
>> >>
>> >>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/
>> >>
>> >> There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to use
>> in
>> >> GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to say
>> that
>> >> lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's
>> "mindset
>> >> of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing I
>> said
>> >> in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying
>> "Facts...
>> >> Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".
>> >>
>> >> I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the
>> >> ropes.
>> >>
>> >> And Exhibit B:
>> >>
>> >> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another
>> thread
>> >> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
>> >> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
>> >> Even if you win, you lose...
>> >>
>> >> This is this very thread:
>> >>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/
>> >>
>> >> Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend
>> shocking 3
>> >> minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining,
>> and
>> >> patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person characterized
>> the
>> >> official 2.10.8 announcement.
>> >>
>> >> "mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the
>> >> very same thread --
>> >>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/
>> >> -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes
>> between
>> >> versions.
>> >>
>> >> And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:
>> >>
>> >> "I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of
>> tagging a
>> >> release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for the
>> next
>> >> version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart
>> attack,
>>
> >> save for our friend /u/Unchayned <https://www.reddit.com/u/Unchayned>
>
>
>> >> here."
>> >>
>> >> There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think our
>> >> interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
>> >>
>> >> Alex
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for
>> your
>> >>> actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself
>> only,
>> >>> but for other people as well.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine <
>> >>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Hi Niccolo,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a
>> >>>> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about
>> something they
>> >>>> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before
>> >>>> drawing conclusions.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to
>> releases
>> >>>> we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should
>> have
>> >>>> kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos
>> verbal
>> >>>> abuse containing expletives.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Alexandre
>> >>>>
>> >>>> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Hello.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> TLDR:
>> >>>>> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that
>> he's
>> >>>>> a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing
>> things
>> >>>>> that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role,
>> which
>> >>>>> makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> FULL:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've
>> >>>>> had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest
>> exchange is
>> >>>>>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
>> >>>>> from the Reddit thread at
>> >>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.
>> >>>>> While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What
>> triggered
>> >>>>> Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than
>> random
>> >>>>> ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade
>> hundreds
>> >>>>> of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
>> >>>>> understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should
>> refactor
>> >>>>> GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said).
>> Regardless,
>> >>>>> instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release
>> because, bla
>> >>>>> bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying
>> that I had
>> >>>>> no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither
>> is he
>> >>>>> more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just
>> because
>> >>>>> of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil,
>> which is
>> >>>>> what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas
>> with people
>> >>>>> that have unapproved opinions.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to
>> >>>>> perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be
>> honest
>> >>>>> sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I
>> didn't say
>> >>>>> nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally
>> different
>> >>>>> beast.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I
>> started
>> >>>>> getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre
>> attacked around
>> >>>>> Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg
>> guy
>> >>>>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just
>> wanted to
>> >>>>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact
>> same
>> >>>>> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Another message:
>> >>>>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another
>> >>>>> thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough
>> people had
>> >>>>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on
>> something.
>> >>>>> Even if you win, you lose...
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like
>> >>>>> "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it",
>> or using
>> >>>>> "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being
>> >>>>> important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users,
>> because
>> >>>>> what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome
>> free
>> >>>>> stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I
>> found out
>> >>>>> that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical
>> ways.
>> >>>>> This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a
>> developer but
>> >>>>> not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending
>> to be a
>> >>>>> developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from
>> >>>>> communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's
>> >>>>> doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project.
>> It's easy
>> >>>>> to relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate
>> GIMP
>> >>>>> users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really
>> talk to,
>> >>>>> because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome
>> project
>> >>>>> you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a
>> critic
>> >>>>> into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition,
>> pretending
>> >>>>> to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the
>> dev team,
>> >>>>> since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled
>> assholes.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre
>> >>>>> from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since
>> I would
>> >>>>> assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe)
>> you guys
>> >>>>> are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this
>> >>>>> behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his
>> >>>>> attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for
>> someone who
>> >>>>> either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Niccolo.
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> Niccolo.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>> Niccolo.
>> >>>
>> >> --
>> > Niccolo.
>> >
>>
> _______________________________________________
>> gimp-developer-list mailing list
>> List address:    [hidden email]
>> List membership:
>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>>
> --

Niccolo.
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[Developers mailing list]

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 6:25 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Nope.
>
> Everything started because I was called a "backseat viewer", and therefore
> not allowed to say that scheduled releases are good. After that I was
> replying to that attitude, and not about whether rolling releases are
> better (which I had an extremely open mind about).
>

I'm afraid you are conflating "criticism" with "purposedly being a true
pain in the neck".

If people are not happy with unsheduled releases, I would (naively?) expect
them to begin with stating that they think this is wrong and then, politely
or not so much, asking why that is the case and what is the reason for not
switching to rolling. You never really asked. You started the conversation
with a claim that we should pay attention to users (like we don't, contrary
to a mountain of evidence) and that we tell them to f*** off. What did you
expect to happen next?

(For the record, I personally would prefer the rolling model for GIMP, but
it is currently not quite realistic. Besides, so far, most people who spoke
up seem to be happy with the new release model where new things get ported
to the stable branch and then released every month or two.)

In almost a week of this ongoing "conversation" you still haven't asked why
we don't do rolling and scheduled releases. This is exactly how much
constructive your "criticism" is. And I'm still willing to explain why,
publicly.

I'm only replying to this, because here you are again pretending that we
(or me personally) attack critics. We don't. All that happened here is that
I was sarcastic over yet another case of someone being unnecessarily nasty
to the point of insult.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat it: criticism is welcome and
studied, but insults, shouting, and use of expletives aren't. Please learn
the difference. We cannot have a constructive conversation until you do.

Alex

>
> The message you quoted is way after things started going bad.
>
> As for your comparison with Starbucks, I don't abuse Starbucks employees
> and neither I abuse GIMP's staff.
>
> I also don't care about harsh words, I'm not a little snowflake. I just
> want to know if GIMP is represented by Alexandre like he implies, and if
> the GIMP team is OK with attacking newbies and critics of GIMP saying
> they're backseat drivers that are not worth listening to and not worth
> explaining things.
>
> I'm not the only one who shares the view that in GIMP there is this
> attitude of "if you didn't make it, you're not allowed to talk bad about
> it".
>
> If that's the culture at GIMP, I'm not gonna cry. Just say it.
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:00 C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
>

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[Developers mailing list]

>
>
> Everything started because I was called a "backseat viewer", and therefore
> not allowed to say that scheduled releases are good. After that I was
> replying to that attitude, and not about whether rolling releases are
> better (which I had an extremely open mind about).
>

You said all sorts of things, made all sorts of assumptions. He's not wrong
about that. You were complaining about things that are factually wrong,
then when told you were wrong about those things, you got upset... like way
upset. :)


> The message you quoted is way after things started going bad.
>

That bit seemed pretty civil up until that statement. Redit makes it hard
to tell, I just followed the first path I found. If you came back later to
continue the rant at that point it all says "5 days ago". But whatever.


> As for your comparison with Starbucks, I don't abuse Starbucks employees
> and neither I abuse GIMP's staff.
>

You're not complaining about your coffee, you're complaining on what day
the coffee is getting better, and implying that GIMP doesn't listen to
their users (to which Alex rightly pointed out that all the 2.10 stuff
users asked for was done).

Making negative assumptions about GIMP developers is abusive, especially in
a community you don't know anything about. GIMP is community maintained
software, and Alex has been a part of that community for ages. So yes, you
will find that he knows much more than you do about the inner workings of
GIMP. He's on #gimp all the time and is helpful in lots of ways as an
active part of the community. You'd do well to listen, take the criticism,
and work on your own communication skills before jumping in and demanding
that no one hurt your feelers, because I don't see you trying very hard to
control your own temper in these threads.



> I also don't care about harsh words, I'm not a little snowflake.
>

You should. It's community software. Leveling abuse at volunteers trying to
make better software for you for free is kind of a dick move.


> I just want to know if GIMP is represented by Alexandre like he implies,
> and if the GIMP team is OK with attacking newbies and critics of GIMP
> saying they're backseat drivers that are not worth listening to and not
> worth explaining things.
>

You were not attacked. You were corrected. Show us how much you're not a
snowflake and be a bit civil yourself.


> I'm not the only one who shares the view that in GIMP there is this
> attitude of "if you didn't make it, you're not allowed to talk bad about
> it".
>

Nowhere did anyone keep you from talking about it. Not on Reddit, and not
on this mailing list.

If that's the culture at GIMP, I'm not gonna cry. Just say it.
>

Be nice, and you can expect the same in most circumstances. That's not just
GIMP culture, that's life in general.

-C

>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:00 C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> From a third party perspective, this is where things kicked off in the
>> thread:
>>
>> "I didn't say you didn't include any features users ask for, I was just
>> justifying me complaining.
>>
>> Why do you guys have to get so pissy so quickly, is it GIMP's code that
>> makes you that, or you have to pass a "constantly-pissed-off" exam to
>> become a GIMP dev?
>> Jesus..."
>>
>> What baffles me is why people start ranting on forums, making all sorts
>> of wrong assumptions about GIMP dev motivations, and then expect everyone
>> involved to stumble over themselves trying to please them.
>>
>> This is not Starbucks - Abuse of staff will not go unchallenged. :)
>>
>> Frankly, I'm astounded at Alexandre's restraint.
>>
>> Just an outsider's perspective.
>> -C
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Alexandre Prokoudine via
>> gimp-developer-list <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't
>>> know if
>>> > people can read it.
>>> >
>>> > Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in
>>> > court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who
>>> > represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep
>>> > saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you
>>> > misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).
>>> >
>>>
>>> I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately --
>>> you
>>> have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they call
>>> me
>>> a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.
>>>
>>> If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will
>>> help
>>> your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.
>>>
>>>
>>> > Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but
>>> > considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that
>>> they
>>> > know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior
>>> is
>>> > appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If it's
>>> not,
>>> > don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be as
>>> much
>>> > of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree
>>> with
>>> > you.
>>> >
>>>
>>> I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went
>>> for,
>>> is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:
>>>
>>> https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html
>>>
>>> "Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid repetitive
>>> arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____."
>>>
>>> Please consider rethinking your interaction here.
>>>
>>> Good day to you.
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine <
>>> > [hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
>>> >>> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who
>>> >>> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with you. I
>>> >>> guess it's you against the world.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in
>>> >>> case they have the courage to approve my message or at least
>>> reply--if they
>>> >>> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your
>>> behavior
>>> >>> is OK?).
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing
>>> lists
>>> >> you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get
>>> >> emails sent to those list.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't
>>> as
>>> >>> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two
>>> other
>>> >> problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can
>>> pinpoint
>>> >> the relevant threads.
>>> >>
>>> >> Exhibit A:
>>> >>
>>> >> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy
>>> >> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just
>>> wanted to
>>> >> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same
>>> >> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>> >>
>>> >> This is this very thread:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/
>>> >>
>>> >> There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to
>>> use in
>>> >> GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to
>>> say that
>>> >> lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's
>>> "mindset
>>> >> of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing I
>>> said
>>> >> in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying
>>> "Facts...
>>> >> Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".
>>> >>
>>> >> I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the
>>> >> ropes.
>>> >>
>>> >> And Exhibit B:
>>> >>
>>> >> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another
>>> thread
>>> >> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
>>> >> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on
>>> something.
>>> >> Even if you win, you lose...
>>> >>
>>> >> This is this very thread:
>>> >>
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/
>>> >>
>>> >> Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend
>>> shocking 3
>>> >> minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining,
>>> and
>>> >> patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person
>>> characterized the
>>> >> official 2.10.8 announcement.
>>> >>
>>> >> "mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the
>>> >> very same thread --
>>> >>
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/
>>> >> -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes
>>> between
>>> >> versions.
>>> >>
>>> >> And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:
>>> >>
>>> >> "I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of
>>> tagging a
>>> >> release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for the
>>> next
>>> >> version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart
>>> attack,
>>>
>> >> save for our friend /u/Unchayned <https://www.reddit.com/u/Unchayned>
>>
>>
>>> >> here."
>>> >>
>>> >> There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think our
>>> >> interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
>>> >>
>>> >> Alex
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for
>>> your
>>> >>> actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself
>>> only,
>>> >>> but for other people as well.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine <
>>> >>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> Hi Niccolo,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a
>>> >>>> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about
>>> something they
>>> >>>> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before
>>> >>>> drawing conclusions.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to
>>> releases
>>> >>>> we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should
>>> have
>>> >>>> kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos
>>> verbal
>>> >>>> abuse containing expletives.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Alexandre
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> Hello.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> TLDR:
>>> >>>>> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that
>>> he's
>>> >>>>> a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing
>>> things
>>> >>>>> that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role,
>>> which
>>> >>>>> makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> FULL:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry):
>>> I've
>>> >>>>> had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest
>>> exchange is
>>> >>>>>
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
>>> >>>>> from the Reddit thread at
>>> >>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/
>>> .
>>> >>>>> While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What
>>> triggered
>>> >>>>> Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than
>>> random
>>> >>>>> ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade
>>> hundreds
>>> >>>>> of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
>>> >>>>> understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should
>>> refactor
>>> >>>>> GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said).
>>> Regardless,
>>> >>>>> instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release
>>> because, bla
>>> >>>>> bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying
>>> that I had
>>> >>>>> no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither
>>> is he
>>> >>>>> more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just
>>> because
>>> >>>>> of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil,
>>> which is
>>> >>>>> what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas
>>> with people
>>> >>>>> that have unapproved opinions.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to
>>> >>>>> perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to
>>> be honest
>>> >>>>> sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I
>>> didn't say
>>> >>>>> nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally
>>> different
>>> >>>>> beast.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I
>>> started
>>> >>>>> getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre
>>> attacked around
>>> >>>>> Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg
>>> guy
>>> >>>>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just
>>> wanted to
>>> >>>>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact
>>> same
>>> >>>>> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Another message:
>>> >>>>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another
>>> >>>>> thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough
>>> people had
>>> >>>>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on
>>> something.
>>> >>>>> Even if you win, you lose...
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like
>>> >>>>> "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it",
>>> or using
>>> >>>>> "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev"
>>> being
>>> >>>>> important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users,
>>> because
>>> >>>>> what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome
>>> free
>>> >>>>> stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I
>>> found out
>>> >>>>> that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in
>>> non-technical ways.
>>> >>>>> This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a
>>> developer but
>>> >>>>> not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending
>>> to be a
>>> >>>>> developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from
>>> >>>>> communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's
>>> >>>>> doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project.
>>> It's easy
>>> >>>>> to relate to people that agree with you, they're already
>>> passionate GIMP
>>> >>>>> users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really
>>> talk to,
>>> >>>>> because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an
>>> awesome project
>>> >>>>> you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a
>>> critic
>>> >>>>> into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition,
>>> pretending
>>> >>>>> to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the
>>> dev team,
>>> >>>>> since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled
>>> assholes.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop
>>> Alexandre
>>> >>>>> from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me
>>> since I would
>>> >>>>> assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe)
>>> you guys
>>> >>>>> are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this
>>> >>>>> behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his
>>> >>>>> attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for
>>> someone who
>>> >>>>> either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Niccolo.
>>> >>>>> --
>>> >>>>> Niccolo.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>> --
>>> >>> Niccolo.
>>> >>>
>>> >> --
>>> > Niccolo.
>>> >
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>> gimp-developer-list mailing list
>>> List address:    [hidden email]
>>> List membership:
>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
>>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>>>
>> --
> Niccolo.
>

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[Chris Moller-3]

I haven't a clue if the GIMP devs are paid for doing it or if it's just
something they do but, regardless, it's a fabulous piece of software
that merits thanks, not b1tching.  If you don't like it, downgrade to
photoshop.
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[Developers mailing list]

Fair enough. I guess people (total of 3 different people) that PMed me are
dicks, too.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:59 C R <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> Everything started because I was called a "backseat viewer", and
>> therefore not allowed to say that scheduled releases are good. After that I
>> was replying to that attitude, and not about whether rolling releases are
>> better (which I had an extremely open mind about).
>>
>
> You said all sorts of things, made all sorts of assumptions. He's not
> wrong about that. You were complaining about things that are factually
> wrong, then when told you were wrong about those things, you got upset...
> like way upset. :)
>
>
>> The message you quoted is way after things started going bad.
>>
>
> That bit seemed pretty civil up until that statement. Redit makes it hard
> to tell, I just followed the first path I found. If you came back later to
> continue the rant at that point it all says "5 days ago". But whatever.
>
>
>> As for your comparison with Starbucks, I don't abuse Starbucks employees
>> and neither I abuse GIMP's staff.
>>
>
> You're not complaining about your coffee, you're complaining on what day
> the coffee is getting better, and implying that GIMP doesn't listen to
> their users (to which Alex rightly pointed out that all the 2.10 stuff
> users asked for was done).
>
> Making negative assumptions about GIMP developers is abusive, especially
> in a community you don't know anything about. GIMP is community maintained
> software, and Alex has been a part of that community for ages. So yes, you
> will find that he knows much more than you do about the inner workings of
> GIMP. He's on #gimp all the time and is helpful in lots of ways as an
> active part of the community. You'd do well to listen, take the criticism,
> and work on your own communication skills before jumping in and demanding
> that no one hurt your feelers, because I don't see you trying very hard to
> control your own temper in these threads.
>
>
>
>> I also don't care about harsh words, I'm not a little snowflake.
>>
>
> You should. It's community software. Leveling abuse at volunteers trying
> to make better software for you for free is kind of a dick move.
>
>
>> I just want to know if GIMP is represented by Alexandre like he implies,
>> and if the GIMP team is OK with attacking newbies and critics of GIMP
>> saying they're backseat drivers that are not worth listening to and not
>> worth explaining things.
>>
>
> You were not attacked. You were corrected. Show us how much you're not a
> snowflake and be a bit civil yourself.
>
>
>> I'm not the only one who shares the view that in GIMP there is this
>> attitude of "if you didn't make it, you're not allowed to talk bad about
>> it".
>>
>
> Nowhere did anyone keep you from talking about it. Not on Reddit, and not
> on this mailing list.
>
> If that's the culture at GIMP, I'm not gonna cry. Just say it.
>>
>
> Be nice, and you can expect the same in most circumstances. That's not
> just GIMP culture, that's life in general.
>
> -C
>
>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:00 C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> From a third party perspective, this is where things kicked off in the
>>> thread:
>>>
>>> "I didn't say you didn't include any features users ask for, I was just
>>> justifying me complaining.
>>>
>>> Why do you guys have to get so pissy so quickly, is it GIMP's code that
>>> makes you that, or you have to pass a "constantly-pissed-off" exam to
>>> become a GIMP dev?
>>> Jesus..."
>>>
>>> What baffles me is why people start ranting on forums, making all sorts
>>> of wrong assumptions about GIMP dev motivations, and then expect everyone
>>> involved to stumble over themselves trying to please them.
>>>
>>> This is not Starbucks - Abuse of staff will not go unchallenged. :)
>>>
>>> Frankly, I'm astounded at Alexandre's restraint.
>>>
>>> Just an outsider's perspective.
>>> -C
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Alexandre Prokoudine via
>>> gimp-developer-list <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't
>>>> know if
>>>> > people can read it.
>>>> >
>>>> > Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in
>>>> > court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who
>>>> > represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep
>>>> > saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you
>>>> > misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately --
>>>> you
>>>> have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they call
>>>> me
>>>> a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.
>>>>
>>>> If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will
>>>> help
>>>> your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but
>>>> > considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that
>>>> they
>>>> > know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior
>>>> is
>>>> > appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If
>>>> it's not,
>>>> > don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be
>>>> as much
>>>> > of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree
>>>> with
>>>> > you.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went
>>>> for,
>>>> is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html
>>>>
>>>> "Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid repetitive
>>>> arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____."
>>>>
>>>> Please consider rethinking your interaction here.
>>>>
>>>> Good day to you.
>>>>
>>>> Alex
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine <
>>>> > [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
>>>> >>> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone
>>>> who
>>>> >>> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with you.
>>>> I
>>>> >>> guess it's you against the world.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and
>>>> --in
>>>> >>> case they have the courage to approve my message or at least
>>>> reply--if they
>>>> >>> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your
>>>> behavior
>>>> >>> is OK?).
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing
>>>> lists
>>>> >> you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get
>>>> >> emails sent to those list.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me
>>>> don't as
>>>> >>> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two
>>>> other
>>>> >> problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can
>>>> pinpoint
>>>> >> the relevant threads.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Exhibit A:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy
>>>> >> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just
>>>> wanted to
>>>> >> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact
>>>> same
>>>> >> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> This is this very thread:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/
>>>> >>
>>>> >> There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to
>>>> use in
>>>> >> GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to
>>>> say that
>>>> >> lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's
>>>> "mindset
>>>> >> of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing I
>>>> said
>>>> >> in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying
>>>> "Facts...
>>>> >> Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off
>>>> the
>>>> >> ropes.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> And Exhibit B:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another
>>>> thread
>>>> >> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
>>>> >> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on
>>>> something.
>>>> >> Even if you win, you lose...
>>>> >>
>>>> >> This is this very thread:
>>>> >>
>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend
>>>> shocking 3
>>>> >> minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining,
>>>> and
>>>> >> patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person
>>>> characterized the
>>>> >> official 2.10.8 announcement.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> "mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the
>>>> >> very same thread --
>>>> >>
>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/
>>>> >> -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes
>>>> between
>>>> >> versions.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> "I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of
>>>> tagging a
>>>> >> release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for
>>>> the next
>>>> >> version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart
>>>> attack,
>>>>
>>> >> save for our friend /u/Unchayned <https://www.reddit.com/u/Unchayned>
>>>
>>>
>>>> >> here."
>>>> >>
>>>> >> There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think
>>>> our
>>>> >> interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Alex
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for
>>>> your
>>>> >>> actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for
>>>> yourself only,
>>>> >>> but for other people as well.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine <
>>>> >>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> Hi Niccolo,
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have
>>>> a
>>>> >>>> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about
>>>> something they
>>>> >>>> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn
>>>> before
>>>> >>>> drawing conclusions.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to
>>>> releases
>>>> >>>> we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I
>>>> should have
>>>> >>>> kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos
>>>> verbal
>>>> >>>> abuse containing expletives.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Alexandre
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> Hello.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> TLDR:
>>>> >>>>> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that
>>>> he's
>>>> >>>>> a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing
>>>> things
>>>> >>>>> that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?)
>>>> role, which
>>>> >>>>> makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> FULL:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry):
>>>> I've
>>>> >>>>> had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest
>>>> exchange is
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
>>>> >>>>> from the Reddit thread at
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.
>>>> >>>>> While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What
>>>> triggered
>>>> >>>>> Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than
>>>> random
>>>> >>>>> ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade
>>>> hundreds
>>>> >>>>> of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
>>>> >>>>> understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should
>>>> refactor
>>>> >>>>> GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said).
>>>> Regardless,
>>>> >>>>> instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release
>>>> because, bla
>>>> >>>>> bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying
>>>> that I had
>>>> >>>>> no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but
>>>> neither is he
>>>> >>>>> more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something:
>>>> just because
>>>> >>>>> of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil,
>>>> which is
>>>> >>>>> what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas
>>>> with people
>>>> >>>>> that have unapproved opinions.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to
>>>> >>>>> perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to
>>>> be honest
>>>> >>>>> sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I
>>>> didn't say
>>>> >>>>> nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally
>>>> different
>>>> >>>>> beast.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I
>>>> started
>>>> >>>>> getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre
>>>> attacked around
>>>> >>>>> Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg
>>>> guy
>>>> >>>>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just
>>>> wanted to
>>>> >>>>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact
>>>> same
>>>> >>>>> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Another message:
>>>> >>>>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another
>>>> >>>>> thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough
>>>> people had
>>>> >>>>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on
>>>> something.
>>>> >>>>> Even if you win, you lose...
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff
>>>> like
>>>> >>>>> "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about
>>>> it", or using
>>>> >>>>> "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev"
>>>> being
>>>> >>>>> important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users,
>>>> because
>>>> >>>>> what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome
>>>> free
>>>> >>>>> stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I
>>>> found out
>>>> >>>>> that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in
>>>> non-technical ways.
>>>> >>>>> This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a
>>>> developer but
>>>> >>>>> not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while
>>>> pretending to be a
>>>> >>>>> developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned
>>>> from
>>>> >>>>> communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's
>>>> >>>>> doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project.
>>>> It's easy
>>>> >>>>> to relate to people that agree with you, they're already
>>>> passionate GIMP
>>>> >>>>> users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really
>>>> talk to,
>>>> >>>>> because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an
>>>> awesome project
>>>> >>>>> you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a
>>>> critic
>>>> >>>>> into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition,
>>>> pretending
>>>> >>>>> to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the
>>>> dev team,
>>>> >>>>> since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled
>>>> assholes.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop
>>>> Alexandre
>>>> >>>>> from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me
>>>> since I would
>>>> >>>>> assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe)
>>>> you guys
>>>> >>>>> are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with
>>>> this
>>>> >>>>> behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his
>>>> >>>>> attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for
>>>> someone who
>>>> >>>>> either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Niccolo.
>>>> >>>>> --
>>>> >>>>> Niccolo.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> --
>>>> >>> Niccolo.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >> --
>>>> > Niccolo.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gimp-developer-list mailing list
>>>> List address:    [hidden email]
>>>> List membership:
>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
>>>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>>>>
>>> --
>> Niccolo.
>>
> --

Niccolo.
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[Developers mailing list]

GIMP is maintained by a single guy with another handful of developers.

It definitely is a fab piece of software.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 17:06 Chris Moller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I haven't a clue if the GIMP devs are paid for doing it or if it's just
> something they do but, regardless, it's a fabulous piece of software that
> merits thanks, not b1tching.  If you don't like it, downgrade to photoshop.
>
--
Niccolo.
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[Developers mailing list]

And again, nothing is learned. More name calling, and it's everyone else
that's the problem.

If anyone else wondering why the sarcasm all the time, look in the mirror.
lol


On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:25 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Fair enough. I guess people (total of 3 different people) that PMed me are
> dicks, too.
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:59 C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>>> Everything started because I was called a "backseat viewer", and
>>> therefore not allowed to say that scheduled releases are good. After that I
>>> was replying to that attitude, and not about whether rolling releases are
>>> better (which I had an extremely open mind about).
>>>
>>
>> You said all sorts of things, made all sorts of assumptions. He's not
>> wrong about that. You were complaining about things that are factually
>> wrong, then when told you were wrong about those things, you got upset...
>> like way upset. :)
>>
>>
>>> The message you quoted is way after things started going bad.
>>>
>>
>> That bit seemed pretty civil up until that statement. Redit makes it hard
>> to tell, I just followed the first path I found. If you came back later to
>> continue the rant at that point it all says "5 days ago". But whatever.
>>
>>
>>> As for your comparison with Starbucks, I don't abuse Starbucks employees
>>> and neither I abuse GIMP's staff.
>>>
>>
>> You're not complaining about your coffee, you're complaining on what day
>> the coffee is getting better, and implying that GIMP doesn't listen to
>> their users (to which Alex rightly pointed out that all the 2.10 stuff
>> users asked for was done).
>>
>> Making negative assumptions about GIMP developers is abusive, especially
>> in a community you don't know anything about. GIMP is community maintained
>> software, and Alex has been a part of that community for ages. So yes, you
>> will find that he knows much more than you do about the inner workings of
>> GIMP. He's on #gimp all the time and is helpful in lots of ways as an
>> active part of the community. You'd do well to listen, take the criticism,
>> and work on your own communication skills before jumping in and demanding
>> that no one hurt your feelers, because I don't see you trying very hard to
>> control your own temper in these threads.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I also don't care about harsh words, I'm not a little snowflake.
>>>
>>
>> You should. It's community software. Leveling abuse at volunteers trying
>> to make better software for you for free is kind of a dick move.
>>
>>
>>> I just want to know if GIMP is represented by Alexandre like he implies,
>>> and if the GIMP team is OK with attacking newbies and critics of GIMP
>>> saying they're backseat drivers that are not worth listening to and not
>>> worth explaining things.
>>>
>>
>> You were not attacked. You were corrected. Show us how much you're not a
>> snowflake and be a bit civil yourself.
>>
>>
>>> I'm not the only one who shares the view that in GIMP there is this
>>> attitude of "if you didn't make it, you're not allowed to talk bad about
>>> it".
>>>
>>
>> Nowhere did anyone keep you from talking about it. Not on Reddit, and not
>> on this mailing list.
>>
>> If that's the culture at GIMP, I'm not gonna cry. Just say it.
>>>
>>
>> Be nice, and you can expect the same in most circumstances. That's not
>> just GIMP culture, that's life in general.
>>
>> -C
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:00 C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From a third party perspective, this is where things kicked off in the
>>>> thread:
>>>>
>>>> "I didn't say you didn't include any features users ask for, I was
>>>> just justifying me complaining.
>>>>
>>>> Why do you guys have to get so pissy so quickly, is it GIMP's code that
>>>> makes you that, or you have to pass a "constantly-pissed-off" exam to
>>>> become a GIMP dev?
>>>> Jesus..."
>>>>
>>>> What baffles me is why people start ranting on forums, making all sorts
>>>> of wrong assumptions about GIMP dev motivations, and then expect everyone
>>>> involved to stumble over themselves trying to please them.
>>>>
>>>> This is not Starbucks - Abuse of staff will not go unchallenged. :)
>>>>
>>>> Frankly, I'm astounded at Alexandre's restraint.
>>>>
>>>> Just an outsider's perspective.
>>>> -C
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Alexandre Prokoudine via
>>>> gimp-developer-list <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't
>>>>> know if
>>>>> > people can read it.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in
>>>>> > court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who
>>>>> > represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep
>>>>> > saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you
>>>>> > misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately --
>>>>> you
>>>>> have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they
>>>>> call me
>>>>> a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will
>>>>> help
>>>>> your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but
>>>>> > considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that
>>>>> they
>>>>> > know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your
>>>>> behavior is
>>>>> > appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If
>>>>> it's not,
>>>>> > don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be
>>>>> as much
>>>>> > of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree
>>>>> with
>>>>> > you.
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went
>>>>> for,
>>>>> is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html
>>>>>
>>>>> "Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid
>>>>> repetitive
>>>>> arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____."
>>>>>
>>>>> Please consider rethinking your interaction here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good day to you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Alex
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine <
>>>>> > [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
>>>>> >>> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone
>>>>> who
>>>>> >>> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with
>>>>> you. I
>>>>> >>> guess it's you against the world.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and
>>>>> --in
>>>>> >>> case they have the courage to approve my message or at least
>>>>> reply--if they
>>>>> >>> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your
>>>>> behavior
>>>>> >>> is OK?).
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing
>>>>> lists
>>>>> >> you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people
>>>>> get
>>>>> >> emails sent to those list.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me
>>>>> don't as
>>>>> >>> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two
>>>>> other
>>>>> >> problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can
>>>>> pinpoint
>>>>> >> the relevant threads.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Exhibit A:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg
>>>>> guy
>>>>> >> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just
>>>>> wanted to
>>>>> >> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact
>>>>> same
>>>>> >> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> This is this very thread:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to
>>>>> use in
>>>>> >> GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to
>>>>> say that
>>>>> >> lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's
>>>>> "mindset
>>>>> >> of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing
>>>>> I said
>>>>> >> in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying
>>>>> "Facts...
>>>>> >> Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> ropes.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> And Exhibit B:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another
>>>>> thread
>>>>> >> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
>>>>> >> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on
>>>>> something.
>>>>> >> Even if you win, you lose...
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> This is this very thread:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend
>>>>> shocking 3
>>>>> >> minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords,
>>>>> mansplaining, and
>>>>> >> patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person
>>>>> characterized the
>>>>> >> official 2.10.8 announcement.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> "mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> very same thread --
>>>>> >>
>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/
>>>>> >> -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes
>>>>> between
>>>>> >> versions.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> "I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of
>>>>> tagging a
>>>>> >> release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for
>>>>> the next
>>>>> >> version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart
>>>>> attack,
>>>>>
>>>> >> save for our friend /u/Unchayned <https://www.reddit.com/u/Unchayned
>>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> >> here."
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think
>>>>> our
>>>>> >> interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven
>>>>> wrong.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Alex
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility
>>>>> for your
>>>>> >>> actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for
>>>>> yourself only,
>>>>> >>> but for other people as well.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine <
>>>>> >>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>> Hi Niccolo,
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a
>>>>> have a
>>>>> >>>> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about
>>>>> something they
>>>>> >>>> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn
>>>>> before
>>>>> >>>> drawing conclusions.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to
>>>>> releases
>>>>> >>>> we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I
>>>>> should have
>>>>> >>>> kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos
>>>>> verbal
>>>>> >>>> abuse containing expletives.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Alexandre
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>:
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Hello.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> TLDR:
>>>>> >>>>> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that
>>>>> he's
>>>>> >>>>> a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and
>>>>> doing things
>>>>> >>>>> that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?)
>>>>> role, which
>>>>> >>>>> makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> FULL:
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry):
>>>>> I've
>>>>> >>>>> had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest
>>>>> exchange is
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
>>>>> >>>>> from the Reddit thread at
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.
>>>>> >>>>> While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty.
>>>>> What triggered
>>>>> >>>>> Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than
>>>>> random
>>>>> >>>>> ones, because people like IT administrators might have to
>>>>> upgrade hundreds
>>>>> >>>>> of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
>>>>> >>>>> understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should
>>>>> refactor
>>>>> >>>>> GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said).
>>>>> Regardless,
>>>>> >>>>> instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release
>>>>> because, bla
>>>>> >>>>> bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying
>>>>> that I had
>>>>> >>>>> no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but
>>>>> neither is he
>>>>> >>>>> more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something:
>>>>> just because
>>>>> >>>>> of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil,
>>>>> which is
>>>>> >>>>> what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas
>>>>> with people
>>>>> >>>>> that have unapproved opinions.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to
>>>>> >>>>> perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to
>>>>> be honest
>>>>> >>>>> sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I
>>>>> didn't say
>>>>> >>>>> nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally
>>>>> different
>>>>> >>>>> beast.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I
>>>>> started
>>>>> >>>>> getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre
>>>>> attacked around
>>>>> >>>>> Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that
>>>>> alexlg guy
>>>>> >>>>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it.
>>>>> Just wanted to
>>>>> >>>>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the
>>>>> exact same
>>>>> >>>>> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Another message:
>>>>> >>>>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another
>>>>> >>>>> thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough
>>>>> people had
>>>>> >>>>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on
>>>>> something.
>>>>> >>>>> Even if you win, you lose...
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff
>>>>> like
>>>>> >>>>> "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about
>>>>> it", or using
>>>>> >>>>> "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev"
>>>>> being
>>>>> >>>>> important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow
>>>>> users, because
>>>>> >>>>> what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create
>>>>> awesome free
>>>>> >>>>> stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I
>>>>> found out
>>>>> >>>>> that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in
>>>>> non-technical ways.
>>>>> >>>>> This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a
>>>>> developer but
>>>>> >>>>> not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while
>>>>> pretending to be a
>>>>> >>>>> developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned
>>>>> from
>>>>> >>>>> communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only
>>>>> he's
>>>>> >>>>> doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project.
>>>>> It's easy
>>>>> >>>>> to relate to people that agree with you, they're already
>>>>> passionate GIMP
>>>>> >>>>> users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to
>>>>> really talk to,
>>>>> >>>>> because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an
>>>>> awesome project
>>>>> >>>>> you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a
>>>>> critic
>>>>> >>>>> into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition,
>>>>> pretending
>>>>> >>>>> to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for
>>>>> the dev team,
>>>>> >>>>> since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled
>>>>> assholes.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop
>>>>> Alexandre
>>>>> >>>>> from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me
>>>>> since I would
>>>>> >>>>> assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe)
>>>>> you guys
>>>>> >>>>> are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with
>>>>> this
>>>>> >>>>> behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his
>>>>> >>>>> attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for
>>>>> someone who
>>>>> >>>>> either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Niccolo.
>>>>> >>>>> --
>>>>> >>>>> Niccolo.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>> --
>>>>> >>> Niccolo.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >> --
>>>>> > Niccolo.
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> gimp-developer-list mailing list
>>>>> List address:    [hidden email]
>>>>> List membership:
>>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
>>>>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>> Niccolo.
>>>
>> --
> Niccolo.
>

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[Developers mailing list]

Not so, I listened to what you said. Like I said many times, I change my
mind like a flag in the middle of the storm, and you do have a positive
attitude to not stop this natural process of mine.

You ended your reply with "you were a dick", I said that I have 3 more.
It's 4 or us so far, then.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 5:29 PM C R <[hidden email]> wrote:

> And again, nothing is learned. More name calling, and it's everyone else
> that's the problem.
>
> If anyone else wondering why the sarcasm all the time, look in the mirror.
> lol
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:25 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Fair enough. I guess people (total of 3 different people) that PMed me
>> are dicks, too.
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:59 C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> Everything started because I was called a "backseat viewer", and
>>>> therefore not allowed to say that scheduled releases are good. After that I
>>>> was replying to that attitude, and not about whether rolling releases are
>>>> better (which I had an extremely open mind about).
>>>>
>>>
>>> You said all sorts of things, made all sorts of assumptions. He's not
>>> wrong about that. You were complaining about things that are factually
>>> wrong, then when told you were wrong about those things, you got upset...
>>> like way upset. :)
>>>
>>>
>>>> The message you quoted is way after things started going bad.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That bit seemed pretty civil up until that statement. Redit makes it
>>> hard to tell, I just followed the first path I found. If you came back
>>> later to continue the rant at that point it all says "5 days ago". But
>>> whatever.
>>>
>>>
>>>> As for your comparison with Starbucks, I don't abuse Starbucks
>>>> employees and neither I abuse GIMP's staff.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You're not complaining about your coffee, you're complaining on what day
>>> the coffee is getting better, and implying that GIMP doesn't listen to
>>> their users (to which Alex rightly pointed out that all the 2.10 stuff
>>> users asked for was done).
>>>
>>> Making negative assumptions about GIMP developers is abusive, especially
>>> in a community you don't know anything about. GIMP is community maintained
>>> software, and Alex has been a part of that community for ages. So yes, you
>>> will find that he knows much more than you do about the inner workings of
>>> GIMP. He's on #gimp all the time and is helpful in lots of ways as an
>>> active part of the community. You'd do well to listen, take the criticism,
>>> and work on your own communication skills before jumping in and demanding
>>> that no one hurt your feelers, because I don't see you trying very hard to
>>> control your own temper in these threads.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I also don't care about harsh words, I'm not a little snowflake.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You should. It's community software. Leveling abuse at volunteers trying
>>> to make better software for you for free is kind of a dick move.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I just want to know if GIMP is represented by Alexandre like he
>>>> implies, and if the GIMP team is OK with attacking newbies and critics of
>>>> GIMP saying they're backseat drivers that are not worth listening to and
>>>> not worth explaining things.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You were not attacked. You were corrected. Show us how much you're not a
>>> snowflake and be a bit civil yourself.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm not the only one who shares the view that in GIMP there is this
>>>> attitude of "if you didn't make it, you're not allowed to talk bad about
>>>> it".
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nowhere did anyone keep you from talking about it. Not on Reddit, and
>>> not on this mailing list.
>>>
>>> If that's the culture at GIMP, I'm not gonna cry. Just say it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Be nice, and you can expect the same in most circumstances. That's not
>>> just GIMP culture, that's life in general.
>>>
>>> -C
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:00 C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From a third party perspective, this is where things kicked off in the
>>>>> thread:
>>>>>
>>>>> "I didn't say you didn't include any features users ask for, I was
>>>>> just justifying me complaining.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do you guys have to get so pissy so quickly, is it GIMP's code
>>>>> that makes you that, or you have to pass a "constantly-pissed-off" exam to
>>>>> become a GIMP dev?
>>>>> Jesus..."
>>>>>
>>>>> What baffles me is why people start ranting on forums, making all
>>>>> sorts of wrong assumptions about GIMP dev motivations, and then expect
>>>>> everyone involved to stumble over themselves trying to please them.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not Starbucks - Abuse of staff will not go unchallenged. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Frankly, I'm astounded at Alexandre's restraint.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just an outsider's perspective.
>>>>> -C
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Alexandre Prokoudine via
>>>>> gimp-developer-list <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't
>>>>>> know if
>>>>>> > people can read it.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in
>>>>>> > court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who
>>>>>> > represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you
>>>>>> keep
>>>>>> > saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you
>>>>>> > misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately
>>>>>> -- you
>>>>>> have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they
>>>>>> call me
>>>>>> a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will
>>>>>> help
>>>>>> your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> > considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important
>>>>>> that they
>>>>>> > know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your
>>>>>> behavior is
>>>>>> > appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If
>>>>>> it's not,
>>>>>> > don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be
>>>>>> as much
>>>>>> > of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> > you.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went
>>>>>> for,
>>>>>> is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid
>>>>>> repetitive
>>>>>> arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please consider rethinking your interaction here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good day to you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alex
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine <
>>>>>> > [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
>>>>>> >>> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> >>> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to
>>>>>> people.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with
>>>>>> you. I
>>>>>> >>> guess it's you against the world.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and
>>>>>> --in
>>>>>> >>> case they have the courage to approve my message or at least
>>>>>> reply--if they
>>>>>> >>> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure
>>>>>> your behavior
>>>>>> >>> is OK?).
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the
>>>>>> mailing lists
>>>>>> >> you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> >> emails sent to those list.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me
>>>>>> don't as
>>>>>> >>> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only
>>>>>> two other
>>>>>> >> problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can
>>>>>> pinpoint
>>>>>> >> the relevant threads.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Exhibit A:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg
>>>>>> guy
>>>>>> >> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just
>>>>>> wanted to
>>>>>> >> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact
>>>>>> same
>>>>>> >> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> This is this very thread:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to
>>>>>> use in
>>>>>> >> GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to
>>>>>> say that
>>>>>> >> lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's
>>>>>> "mindset
>>>>>> >> of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing
>>>>>> I said
>>>>>> >> in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying
>>>>>> "Facts...
>>>>>> >> Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> ropes.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> And Exhibit B:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another
>>>>>> thread
>>>>>> >> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
>>>>>> >> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on
>>>>>> something.
>>>>>> >> Even if you win, you lose...
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> This is this very thread:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend
>>>>>> shocking 3
>>>>>> >> minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords,
>>>>>> mansplaining, and
>>>>>> >> patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person
>>>>>> characterized the
>>>>>> >> official 2.10.8 announcement.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> "mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> very same thread --
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/
>>>>>> >> -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes
>>>>>> between
>>>>>> >> versions.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> "I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of
>>>>>> tagging a
>>>>>> >> release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for
>>>>>> the next
>>>>>> >> version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart
>>>>>> attack,
>>>>>>
>>>>> >> save for our friend /u/Unchayned <
>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/u/Unchayned>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> >> here."
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> >> interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven
>>>>>> wrong.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Alex
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility
>>>>>> for your
>>>>>> >>> actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for
>>>>>> yourself only,
>>>>>> >>> but for other people as well.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine <
>>>>>> >>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>> Hi Niccolo,
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a
>>>>>> have a
>>>>>> >>>> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about
>>>>>> something they
>>>>>> >>>> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn
>>>>>> before
>>>>>> >>>> drawing conclusions.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to
>>>>>> releases
>>>>>> >>>> we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I
>>>>>> should have
>>>>>> >>>> kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos
>>>>>> verbal
>>>>>> >>>> abuse containing expletives.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Alexandre
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Hello.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> TLDR:
>>>>>> >>>>> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying
>>>>>> that he's
>>>>>> >>>>> a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and
>>>>>> doing things
>>>>>> >>>>> that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?)
>>>>>> role, which
>>>>>> >>>>> makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> FULL:
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry):
>>>>>> I've
>>>>>> >>>>> had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest
>>>>>> exchange is
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
>>>>>> >>>>> from the Reddit thread at
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.
>>>>>> >>>>> While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty.
>>>>>> What triggered
>>>>>> >>>>> Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better
>>>>>> than random
>>>>>> >>>>> ones, because people like IT administrators might have to
>>>>>> upgrade hundreds
>>>>>> >>>>> of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think
>>>>>> he
>>>>>> >>>>> understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should
>>>>>> refactor
>>>>>> >>>>> GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said).
>>>>>> Regardless,
>>>>>> >>>>> instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release
>>>>>> because, bla
>>>>>> >>>>> bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically
>>>>>> saying that I had
>>>>>> >>>>> no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but
>>>>>> neither is he
>>>>>> >>>>> more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something:
>>>>>> just because
>>>>>> >>>>> of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil,
>>>>>> which is
>>>>>> >>>>> what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas
>>>>>> with people
>>>>>> >>>>> that have unapproved opinions.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to
>>>>>> >>>>> perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and
>>>>>> to be honest
>>>>>> >>>>> sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I
>>>>>> didn't say
>>>>>> >>>>> nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> >>>>> beast.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I
>>>>>> started
>>>>>> >>>>> getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre
>>>>>> attacked around
>>>>>> >>>>> Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that
>>>>>> alexlg guy
>>>>>> >>>>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it.
>>>>>> Just wanted to
>>>>>> >>>>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the
>>>>>> exact same
>>>>>> >>>>> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Another message:
>>>>>> >>>>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in
>>>>>> another
>>>>>> >>>>> thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough
>>>>>> people had
>>>>>> >>>>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on
>>>>>> something.
>>>>>> >>>>> Even if you win, you lose...
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> >>>>> "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about
>>>>>> it", or using
>>>>>> >>>>> "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev"
>>>>>> being
>>>>>> >>>>> important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow
>>>>>> users, because
>>>>>> >>>>> what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create
>>>>>> awesome free
>>>>>> >>>>> stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when
>>>>>> I found out
>>>>>> >>>>> that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in
>>>>>> non-technical ways.
>>>>>> >>>>> This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a
>>>>>> developer but
>>>>>> >>>>> not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while
>>>>>> pretending to be a
>>>>>> >>>>> developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> >>>>> communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only
>>>>>> he's
>>>>>> >>>>> doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the
>>>>>> project. It's easy
>>>>>> >>>>> to relate to people that agree with you, they're already
>>>>>> passionate GIMP
>>>>>> >>>>> users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to
>>>>>> really talk to,
>>>>>> >>>>> because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an
>>>>>> awesome project
>>>>>> >>>>> you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn
>>>>>> a critic
>>>>>> >>>>> into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition,
>>>>>> pretending
>>>>>> >>>>> to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for
>>>>>> the dev team,
>>>>>> >>>>> since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled
>>>>>> assholes.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop
>>>>>> Alexandre
>>>>>> >>>>> from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me
>>>>>> since I would
>>>>>> >>>>> assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just
>>>>>> maybe) you guys
>>>>>> >>>>> are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> >>>>> behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his
>>>>>> >>>>> attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for
>>>>>> someone who
>>>>>> >>>>> either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Niccolo.
>>>>>> >>>>> --
>>>>>> >>>>> Niccolo.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>> --
>>>>>> >>> Niccolo.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >> --
>>>>>> > Niccolo.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> gimp-developer-list mailing list
>>>>>> List address:    [hidden email]
>>>>>> List membership:
>>>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
>>>>>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>> Niccolo.
>>>>
>>> --
>> Niccolo.
>>
> --

Niccolo.
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[Developers mailing list]

I said spreading falsehoods about GIMP was a "dick move", and it is.
I ended my last reply with "look in the mirror" as in, look how you're
treating people in the GIMP community. Is that how you want to be treated?
No? Then stop it. :)
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[Developers mailing list]

What falsehoods have I been spreading?

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 5:39 PM C R <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I said spreading falsehoods about GIMP was a "dick move", and it is.
> I ended my last reply with "look in the mirror" as in, look how you're
> treating people in the GIMP community. Is that how you want to be treated?
> No? Then stop it. :)
>
--
Niccolo.
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[Developers mailing list]

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:35 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Not so, I listened to what you said. Like I said many times, I change my
> mind like a flag in the middle of the storm, and you do have a positive
> attitude to not stop this natural process of mine.
>
> You ended your reply with "you were a dick",
>

1. He didn't end his reply with that. The word was in the middle of his
email.

2. He said "it was a dick move", he didn't call you one.

If you continue this well established pattern of knowingly misrepresenting
what people tell you, I'm afraid we will have to force-end this
conversation.

Alex

I said that I have 3 more. It's 4 or us so far, then.
>
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[Developers mailing list]

Fine with me.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 5:43 PM Alexandre Prokoudine <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:35 PM Niccolo Brogi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Not so, I listened to what you said. Like I said many times, I change my
>> mind like a flag in the middle of the storm, and you do have a positive
>> attitude to not stop this natural process of mine.
>>
>> You ended your reply with "you were a dick",
>>
>
> 1. He didn't end his reply with that. The word was in the middle of his
> email.
>
> 2. He said "it was a dick move", he didn't call you one.
>
> If you continue this well established pattern of knowingly misrepresenting
> what people tell you, I'm afraid we will have to force-end this
> conversation.
>
> Alex
>
> I said that I have 3 more. It's 4 or us so far, then.
>>
> --

Niccolo.
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